TKD Forms; a running comparison

[IcemanSK]

Ji Tae is relatively simple. Cheonkwon (7th Dan KKW Poomsae) however, is a rough one.

[bushido_man96]

Ready for some 7th Dan forms.

WTF 7th Dan Poomsae, Cheonkown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpcEm3JNauU

26 moves, in an upside down T pattern. The form opens with a series of blocking and then grabbing motions, moving into tension punches following the grab and withdrawing hand. There are a lot of circular movements in this form, so I'd guess more blocking and grabbing techniques, perhaps with the possibility of applying locks or breaks of joints. Through the "stem" of the pattern, there are a lot of double hand blocks in a row, with a double knife hand low block, then shifting forward and doing a scissors type of block. We also get a jumping, spinning 360 target kick. The form ends slowly and in a concentrated fashion with some knife hand diamond blocks (I call them hi/low blocks), and then some pushing palm blocks, which tend to follow the flowing, circular motions of this form. It ends like it begins, with the circling of the arms into the ready position.

ATA 7th Dan Poomsae, Chul Joon:

97 moves, and again, like 6th Dan form, there are a series of 31 "freestyle" moves in this form, so I've shared a few links. The core of the form seems pretty straight forward, with advancing moves mixed with some retreating moves, with the retreating going into cross-legged stances, or spinning away in a cross-legged stance. An interesting tactic, but not one I'd be likely to teach anyone to use for self-defense purposes. This form also has some interesting circular motions in both striking and blocking with the hands.

So there we have 7th dan forms. Anyone with experience with these forms, please chime in on anything I am overlooking, since I don't have any direct experience with them. All comments appreciated!

[IcemanSK]

In 2009, I took the Kukkiwon Instructor's Course held in Chicago. The Poomsae instructor was GM Jae Yoon AHN, multi-time Poomsae Worlds gold medalist. 168 masters from all over the world were in attendance at this event hanging on everything GM AHN taught. He was amazing! While teaching Cheonkwon, he called up Master Ron Southwick, a member of the US Poomsae team. The two would face each other at Worlds 3 weeks later. Without warning, in front of the whole class, GM AHN asked Master Southwick to perform Cheonkwon. Master Southwick did so and everyone sat with their mouths open at his ability. When someone asked GM AHN what he thought of the performance he said, "Now I have to go home and work on Cheonkwon!"

Cheonkwon is an easy form to get off balance with. If you are "off", it's hard to recover. The jump spinning crescent kick to a target is a real hard one. It's a thing of beauty when done well, however.

[bushido_man96]

In 2009, I took the Kukkiwon Instructor's Course held in Chicago. The Poomsae instructor was GM Jae Yoon AHN, multi-time Poomsae Worlds gold medalist. 168 masters from all over the world were in attendance at this event hanging on everything GM AHN taught. He was amazing! While teaching Cheonkwon, he called up Master Ron Southwick, a member of the US Poomsae team. The two would face each other at Worlds 3 weeks later. Without warning, in front of the whole class, GM AHN asked Master Southwick to perform Cheonkwon. Master Southwick did so and everyone sat with their mouths open at his ability. When someone asked GM AHN what he thought of the performance he said, "Now I have to go home and work on Cheonkwon!"

Cheonkwon is an easy form to get off balance with. If you are "off", it's hard to recover. The jump spinning crescent kick to a target is a real hard one. It's a thing of beauty when done well, however.

That's pretty cool. Do you think the GM called him out to scout him out? I agree with the difficulty of the jump spinning target kick. Not a technique I'd look forward to doing.

[IcemanSK]

Yeah, there was a bit of gamesmanship in that exchange, for sure. It was fun to watch.

One of things that puzzle me about the KKW yundanja Poomsae is that get increasingly more difficult to perform as they go up in rank. Perhaps that's why the WTF competition Poomsae selects the Poomsae performed by age, rather than belt rank. Before competition Poomsae, I rarely saw any Poomsae higher than Koryeo (1st Dan Poomsae) performed in tournaments. I was a 1st Dan in the mid-80's before I'd even heard of Keumgang (2nd Dan Poomsae) and Taebek (3rd Dan Poomsae). And that was only because GM Pugil Kwon's book came out. I never actually saw them performed until a few years later.

I'm torn about Poomsae being taught to all for competition. I've always been a "one rank, one Poomsae" kind of person. But now, we get to see all of the yundanja Poomsae more often than ever. On balance, I think it's a better thing than having, say, Cheonkwon as a "mysterious" Poomsae that is rarely shown because few 7th Dan are interested in competing in Poomsae.

[DWx]

Yeah, there was a bit of gamesmanship in that exchange, for sure. It was fun to watch.

One of things that puzzle me about the KKW yundanja Poomsae is that get increasingly more difficult to perform as they go up in rank. Perhaps that's why the WTF competition Poomsae selects the Poomsae performed by age, rather than belt rank. Before competition Poomsae, I rarely saw any Poomsae higher than Koryeo (1st Dan Poomsae) performed in tournaments. I was a 1st Dan in the mid-80's before I'd even heard of Keumgang (2nd Dan Poomsae) and Taebek (3rd Dan Poomsae). And that was only because GM Pugil Kwon's book came out. I never actually saw them performed until a few years later.

I'm torn about Poomsae being taught to all for competition. I've always been a "one rank, one Poomsae" kind of person. But now, we get to see all of the yundanja Poomsae more often than ever. On balance, I think it's a better thing than having, say, Cheonkwon as a "mysterious" Poomsae that is rarely shown because few 7th Dan are interested in competing in Poomsae.

I said to Heidi earlier in the thread I thought it odd that competitors were split only by age and not by dan rank also and that competitors had to learn all poomse. ITF tournaments work a little differently in that the ages are split off but dan grades are all separate categories too: 1st dans vs 1st dans, 2nd vs 2nd and so on. You also have to perform your form from your grade. I wouldn't say it's uncommon to see the higher dan forms at our tournaments.

[IcemanSK]

I said to Heidi earlier in the thread I thought it odd that competitors were split only by age and not by dan rank also and that competitors had to learn all poomse. ITF tournaments work a little differently in that the ages are split off but dan grades are all separate categories too: 1st dans vs 1st dans, 2nd vs 2nd and so on. You also have to perform your form from your grade. I wouldn't say it's uncommon to see the higher dan forms at our tournaments.

Having Poomsae competition at the world class level like this is relatively new for WTF/KKW. Sparring has always been KING for a very long time for us. But it's a young person's game. By the time one is 35 (or maybe 40, if one is lucky) your fighting days are over. So, a 40 year old 6th-7th Dan is in a suit on the sidelines with the other masters talking about the "good ole' days." And because Poomsae was not a big deal, there were no competitors doing it at that rank. I don't want to say that it was seen as "undignified" for them. It just wasn't the focus of most masters to work on Poomsae. ITF folks have always had an appreciation for Tul, as well as sparring. Our appreciation for Poomsae is roughly (maybe) 15 years old. It has changed the attention of Kukki-TKD to be much broader than it has been for 30 years.

It's a gamble to hopefully grow Kukki-TKD and it seems to have worked.

[bushido_man96]

Yeah, there was a bit of gamesmanship in that exchange, for sure. It was fun to watch.

One of things that puzzle me about the KKW yundanja Poomsae is that get increasingly more difficult to perform as they go up in rank. Perhaps that's why the WTF competition Poomsae selects the Poomsae performed by age, rather than belt rank. Before competition Poomsae, I rarely saw any Poomsae higher than Koryeo (1st Dan Poomsae) performed in tournaments. I was a 1st Dan in the mid-80's before I'd even heard of Keumgang (2nd Dan Poomsae) and Taebek (3rd Dan Poomsae). And that was only because GM Pugil Kwon's book came out. I never actually saw them performed until a few years later.

I'm torn about Poomsae being taught to all for competition. I've always been a "one rank, one Poomsae" kind of person. But now, we get to see all of the yundanja Poomsae more often than ever. On balance, I think it's a better thing than having, say, Cheonkwon as a "mysterious" Poomsae that is rarely shown because few 7th Dan are interested in competing in Poomsae.

I said to Heidi earlier in the thread I thought it odd that competitors were split only by age and not by dan rank also and that competitors had to learn all poomse. ITF tournaments work a little differently in that the ages are split off but dan grades are all separate categories too: 1st dans vs 1st dans, 2nd vs 2nd and so on. You also have to perform your form from your grade. I wouldn't say it's uncommon to see the higher dan forms at our tournaments.

I agree with Danielle's assessment here. When I was in the ATA, they were always good about having tournament rings divided into appropriate age and rank categories. One thing the ATA also did was start their "Top Ten" black belt rankings, where competitors would score points for placing in regional and national/the world tournament. I don't recall what each placement scored, but if you double placed in tournaments, it was good for helping your score. It also helped tracking results for each age/rank group. I think other systems could benefit from this kind of setup, as well.

I think that's why ATA students always got a bad rap, especially when others would claim that they only compete in their own tournaments. Really, they gain more within their organization to do so. They have a standardized rule set, trained judges, and their own sanctioned tournaments, so why not? Its not that they were not allowed to compete in other tournament systems; they definitely could, and I know of one instructor that used to be in Colorado that actually competed in some old PKA fights. Some ATA students compete in MMA now. But for those that like the ATA tournament circuit, its really one of the aspects of the ATA that is setup the right way.

[bushido_man96]

Having Poomsae competition at the world class level like this is relatively new for WTF/KKW. Sparring has always been KING for a very long time for us. But it's a young person's game. By the time one is 35 (or maybe 40, if one is lucky) your fighting days are over. So, a 40 year old 6th-7th Dan is in a suit on the sidelines with the other masters talking about the "good ole' days." And because Poomsae was not a big deal, there were no competitors doing it at that rank. I don't want to say that it was seen as "undignified" for them. It just wasn't the focus of most masters to work on Poomsae. ITF folks have always had an appreciation for Tul, as well as sparring. Our appreciation for Poomsae is roughly (maybe) 15 years old. It has changed the attention of Kukki-TKD to be much broader than it has been for 30 years.

It's a gamble to hopefully grow Kukki-TKD and it seems to have worked.

I think forms competition can be more appealing to a different kind of athlete than sparring is. Both require athletic ability, but sparring I dependent on a different kind of timing and reaction skill set than forms competition is. It takes a really good athlete to excel at both. Adding in forms-focused competition can only be a boon to the WTF.

[IcemanSK]

Who's ready for 8th Dan Poomsae, Forms, Tul? This guy!