TKD Forms; a running comparison

[bushido_man96]

Taekwondo Poomsae: The Fighting Scrolls' date=' by Kingsley Umoh, is a new book I've found with some different takes on the applications of the Taegeuk and Palgwe forms. Its a different approach than O'Neil's book.

I was disappointed in O'Neil's book because the photos were too dark to reveal what he was trying to convey. To me, it wasn't helpful for that reason.[/quote']I agree, it is tough to figure out what is going on in the photos. I understand that he has a companion DVD for the book now, though. That might be worth a look.

[IcemanSK]

WTF/Kukki 5th dan Poomsae, Sipjin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGOPx0P1aKU

31 moves, in a + pattern. Sipjin symbolizes the longevity humans derive from the everlasting elements of nature, and follows the line of movement that is the Chinese character for 10, symbolizing "the infinitely multiplying nature of the decimal system and the endless development of life forms in nature," (from Complete Taekwondo Poomsae). This is an interesting pattern, and again, seems to have that Poe Eun feeling to it at the beginning, moving along the line facing mostly forward, but turning around to face the other way with the open mountain block at moves 4 and 9. The motions starting at move 2b and continuing through move 3c, with the augmented middle section block, pressing forward and opening the hand, and then to a horizontal spear hand thrust with the opposite hand. This segment repeats, as well. At move 15b, we see the first of several boulder pushing blocks, which press very slowly and cover a large area, and they move more upwards than the way I have done them, moving across. We also see some twin forward punches in this form, done in pairs from opposite stances. This is a very interesting form. I noticed in the boulder pushing block, the front stance appeared to have the feet on one line, instead of shoulder width apart, which would be a very awkward movement for me. This form also runs a mix of fast move combinations with slower segments of power and tension.

Sipjin is an interesting and fun poomsae to do. The Bawi Milgi (Rock pushing technique in 15b and two other places) is a sore spot for many Kukki-TKD folks. GM Hae Man PARK (one of the designers) and the original 1975 KKW textbook have performers complete it to the front while competition Poomsae standard is now to the side more (although that is changing in competition, I heard). Which is "right" has been the bone of contention for the past few years. The stance isn't quite a straight line. However, the front stance has become a bit more in line for competition Poomsae in recent years. Some say "it's always been the way in Kukki-TKD," others strongly disagree that that is the case.

[IcemanSK]

Here's Sipjin's Bawi Milgi done to the side. The gentleman with the curly hair is GM AHN, Jae Yun, instructor at KKW and gold medalist at World Poomsae Championships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vppi8ivlFlA&index=43&list=PLEB89C0A9F74576F9

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for sharing that difference, Iceman. It was really subtle, but after a few watches, I notice it.

Something I don't think I mentioned originally, was the way they complete the twin high blocks at the beginning, and then hitch the elbows down, in a sort of strike or release motion. What are the thoughts on that motion?

[IcemanSK]

I'm not exactly sure why the motion is the way it is. My guess is a block and then pulling away from a grab. I find it curious as well.

Edited May 8, 2015 by IcemanSK

[bushido_man96]

I'm not exactly why the motion is the way it is. My guess is a block and then pulling away from a grab. I find it curious as well.

Has it always been done that way, or is it a change that made its way into the form?

[IcemanSK]

I'm not exactly why the motion is the way it is. My guess is a block and then pulling away from a grab. I find it curious as well.

Has it always been done that way, or is it a change that made its way into the form?

It was initially intended to be done to the front. The 1975 KKW textbook shows it that way and GM PARK Hae Man teaches it that way now. For competition in recent years, it changed to more to the side (although it seems to be changing back to the front again). The "why" of the change is a mystery to me. Perhaps someone knows.

[ninjanurse]

The technical modifications in stances for sport poomsae can be quite challenging-especially for us "old timers" who are used to a much wider stance. I prefer to teach my students a wide base when they start but if they are interested in WTF competition we make adaptations.

[bushido_man96]

The technical modifications in stances for sport poomsae can be quite challenging-especially for us "old timers" who are used to a much wider stance. I prefer to teach my students a wide base when they start but if they are interested in WTF competition we make adaptations.

I agree with your approach here. I like to have a stance at least a shoulder width apart (for front stance), and a stance can't be so deep that it becomes an effort to get out of it. Some more flexible students can pull off a deep front stance or back stance, but for me, its more difficult, due to age, knees, weight, etc.

Good fundamental, applicable movements first, and then adjust for competition or aesthetics.

[bushido_man96]

Long lay off, I know, but here are some 6th Dan forms!

WTF 6th Dan Poomsae, Jitae: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPWY_EJIZCc

I count 35 moves, done in a T pattern. Very basic kicks, and really nothing too technically complicated about the form. It does have some very flowing movements, with the high block to punch at the beginning, as well as following the low knife hand blocks into the slow outer forearm block, as well as the stance shift. The blocking series that follows is interesting, too. There is one section on the stem of the T where he faces sideways for a series of blocks and kicks, and of note on the kicks were that they were in a one leg stance, and a down block is done prior to the kick, then retracted, and the the kick is done, so no "arm out" symmetry with the kicks. Also, most of the moves on the stem of the T are done facing forwards, but moving backwards towards the starting point.

ATA 6th Dan Poomsae, Jhang Soo:

96 moves. This form is interesting for the ATA, in that it has a core set of moves, and a series in the form that is "open" for the student to put in his own moves. So, I have provided a few examples to show how some choose to do it. This is interesting in that it allows the student to "freestyle" the form to an extent, giving their own personal flavor to it. In the second link I posted, the practitioner explains how the form is laid out, and there are 30 freestyle moves each practitioner has to plug into the form.

As for the core of the form, it seems to run some cross leg stances, some front leg kicking and then some balance work from the kicking chambers. We also see lots of multiple, single hand technique combinations (with no retraction hand), and also quite of spinning hand techniques. There also appears to be a sweep/downward side kick while standing combo.

The first video shows an interesting kicking sequence with a jumping 360 crescent kick, landing down to some ground kicks, and a kick while standing up in base. He also does either a vertical kick or a twist kick, I can't tell which. He also does what looks like a Boxing combination with some slipping.

In the second link, some of his freestyle moves are an interesting combination of knee, elbows, and a superman punch. He also does a long series of continuous kicking combinations.

In the third video, he customizes with an interesting set of moves that look like a drunken opening, and then looks like he does what I would call a Hapkido like section with a joint lock, takedown, and finish. He does some very interesting circular hand movements.

So, there we go with 6th Dan. I'm sure that there is probably a lot of controversy about the ATA 6th Dan form with its flair of freestyle to it, but at the point of reaching the rank of 6th degree, I think that many practitioners have figured out what they like in particular, what their specialties are, and what their preferences on techniques are. I think it is rather admirable that the ATA allows the student the opportunity to add their own flair to the form.

As always, thoughts and discussions are appreciated! And thanks for being patient with me!