TKD Forms; a running comparison

[bushido_man96]

I apologize for not being as active on this thread as I was earlier. The truth is, each of these posts takes me quite a bit of time to put together, so I need to have a big open time slot to make the posts as good (hopefully) as I want them to be. So, with that said, let's do some 5th dan evaluation of forms!

5th dan ITF tuls:

So San:

Se Jong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dsD2_4tvBE

Tong Il: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXro0R2CmzU

So San: 72 moves, a long form! This follows the + pattern, as well. This form has some interesting footwork, with forward double step-slide turning, which can be seen around move 50, if I see it right, and in move 55. We also see some stepping backwards at move 66 to perform a left scooping block, and then shifting forward to punch in move 67. The form starts by shifting/sliding back wards to block, then stepping forward to strike. After opening, we see some blocking and striking at angles similar to those seen in Yoo Sin. There is also some tricky segments where a twin knife hand strike is delivered out to either side, and then with the arms held in position, their is a high side kick to the right, followed by turning to do a round kick to the left (moves 9, 10, 11). This is repeated later, as well. Move 17 is double low block, followed by a grab and releasing motion in move 18, and a strike follows in move 19. There seems to be a lot of shifting throughout this form. After move 50 with the forward double step slide, we jump back, turning, and execute double guarding blocks. This repeats at move 56, as well. Overall, there are some challenging aspects to this form, but it also seems to focus on some smaller shifting motions and not quite as many athletic motions that we saw in earlier forms.

Se Jong: 24 moves, in a stacked I pattern. Our association does this form at 3rd dan recommended. This form tends to move rather quickly, going one way and then another after just one move, and there is no repeating in the form. I liked this form because I feel like I can move rather powerfully with it. At move #8, for some reason, in our style, we step all the way to face the opposite way to punch, as opposed to just a 90 degree turn. I have no idea why, but we end up facing the right way at the end. At move 20, we do a single palm pressing block, instead of the double. I like this form because it has a fast, powerful feeling to it that appeals to me.

Here is the version we do in my school: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCNaSl1b0fU&list=PLon1GNgZPzV52Ef_tAanXfcPXyraURw2I&index=3 You can see where the differences are at moves 8, 9, and 10. At move 10, we get back headed in the right direction, and the form finishes properly.

Tong Il: 56 movements, in a straight line. This pattern is supposed to symbolize Gen. Choi's desire that Korea become unified, and the stamping motions symbolize his frustration of Korea being divided. This form starts off in a slow, rather smooth rhythm. There are quite a few of slow move performances in the form, as well. There are also some interesting strikes with the top of the hand, what I've heard called an ox-jaw strike, but here are called bow wrist upward block. We see downward kick, outward vertical kick, along with some target kicks. I like the way this form flows, with slower, powerful segments mixed in with faster segments.

And that brings the ITF tul portion of the thread to an end, for the time being. Also of note is there is no GTF pattern to add to the 5th dan ITF tuls. But, just because there aren't any more new patters in ITF, doesn't mean we won't revisit them as we go along!

WTF/Kukki 5th dan Poomsae, Sipjin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGOPx0P1aKU

31 moves, in a + pattern. Sipjin symbolizes the longevity humans derive from the everlasting elements of nature, and follows the line of movement that is the Chinese character for 10, symbolizing "the infinitely multiplying nature of the decimal system and the endless development of life forms in nature," (from Complete Taekwondo Poomsae). This is an interesting pattern, and again, seems to have that Poe Eun feeling to it at the beginning, moving along the line facing mostly forward, but turning around to face the other way with the open mountain block at moves 4 and 9. The motions starting at move 2b and continuing through move 3c, with the augmented middle section block, pressing forward and opening the hand, and then to a horizontal spear hand thrust with the opposite hand. This segment repeats, as well. At move 15b, we see the first of several boulder pushing blocks, which press very slowly and cover a large area, and they move more upwards than the way I have done them, moving across. We also see some twin forward punches in this form, done in pairs from opposite stances. This is a very interesting form. I noticed in the boulder pushing block, the front stance appeared to have the feet on one line, instead of shoulder width apart, which would be a very awkward movement for me. This form also runs a mix of fast move combinations with slower segments of power and tension.

ATA 5th dan Poomsae, Chung Hae:

95 moves, in an hourglass pattern. The form starts with a rather abrupt series of retreating steps and blocking before becoming offensive. The complex ATA kicking keeps up, with an early front kick then consecutive side kick to the opposite side. There are also lots of long, circular blocking motions, both fast and slow, and some more single hand striking combinations. We also see a triple repeating kick set (side kick and some round kicks, as near as I can tell), and a jump spin hook kick. There is a challenging section with a jump front kick followed by a jump spin outer crescent kick, followed by some retreating and blocking, and then it repeats. This form has a lot of moves in some long stances, and lots of movement, taking series of full steps forwards and backwards. There is a very odd circular square block. Later, we see a retreating and jumping spin outer crescent kick, followed by a jump spin inner crescent kick, and prior to that, he was working from a one-leg stance. We see a nice combination that has a stomp kick, followed by some downward striking and then a low kick to finish a downed opponent. That is a long form!

There we have it, 5th dan forms. As we move up the ladder, the lists of forms will likely get shorter, and hopefully, I can still find links to all the form that are out there.

Until then, thoughts, opinions, observations, and tips for any form performances are appreciated!

[sensei8]

This is me looking from the outside, and forgive me for that. But, I'd like to see the application of each movement within the 5th Dan form...ATA 5th dan Poomsae, Chung Hae. Some of the combinations seemed to have no correlation to one another, and I admit, that with me looking in from the outside, I was confused.

I suppose that's the beauty of the MA being made up of different styles of the MA. What I'm use to DOESN'T have to be the same in another. I also suppose that I've been down the Shindokan path so long that I demand some effective applications.

Please set me straight because I need to be set straight, especially if I'm wearing Shindokan blinders where I can only see that and not the beauty of Chung Hae.

[bushido_man96]

This is me looking from the outside, and forgive me for that. But, I'd like to see the application of each movement within the 5th Dan form...ATA 5th dan Poomsae, Chung Hae. Some of the combinations seemed to have no correlation to one another, and I admit, that with me looking in from the outside, I was confused.

I suppose that's the beauty of the MA being made up of different styles of the MA. What I'm use to DOESN'T have to be the same in another. I also suppose that I've been down the Shindokan path so long that I demand some effective applications.

Please set me straight because I need to be set straight, especially if I'm wearing Shindokan blinders where I can only see that and not the beauty of Chung Hae.

Thanks for the questions, Bob, they're good ones, and applicable here.

Its important to remember how young a style the ATA is, and how and why the forms were created. By and large, the ATA forms were created to help students develop TKD techniques as the student advances in rank. They were not laid down with bunkai-style applications in mind. They were designed to challenge the practitioner at that rank with the techniques of that rank.

I hope that makes sense, and answers your question.

[hammer]

This is me looking from the outside, and forgive me for that. But, I'd like to see the application of each movement within the 5th Dan form...ATA 5th dan Poomsae, Chung Hae. Some of the combinations seemed to have no correlation to one another, and I admit, that with me looking in from the outside, I was confused.

I suppose that's the beauty of the MA being made up of different styles of the MA. What I'm use to DOESN'T have to be the same in another. I also suppose that I've been down the Shindokan path so long that I demand some effective applications.

Please set me straight because I need to be set straight, especially if I'm wearing Shindokan blinders where I can only see that and not the beauty of Chung Hae.

Thanks for the questions, Bob, they're good ones, and applicable here.

Its important to remember how young a style the ATA is, and how and why the forms were created. By and large, the ATA forms were created to help students develop TKD techniques as the student advances in rank. They were not laid down with bunkai-style applications in mind. They were designed to challenge the practitioner at that rank with the techniques of that rank.

I hope that makes sense, and answers your question.

Just wondering, do TKD practitioners of any association get into bunkai-style applications? I don't remember having any significant exposure to applications when I learned the Chang Hon (ITF) forms.

[truejim]

Just wondering, do TKD practitioners of any association get into bunkai-style applications? I don't remember having any significant exposure to applications when I learned the Chang Hon (ITF) forms.

Tons of YouTube videos about applications. Here are some...

This one is by the K-Tigers, which is perhaps ironic since they're often criticized for being just taekwondo "dance".

Then if you go on YouTube and search on Lee Dong Hee, he has a bunch of videos about applications; for example, this one was quite popular on Facebook a couple months ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o_Dhq0W79k

Plenty of discussion on the topic of applications as well; a recent example is here: http://www.martialtalk.com/threads/assisted-block-in-sipjin.117884/

[DWx]

Just wondering, do TKD practitioners of any association get into bunkai-style applications? I don't remember having any significant exposure to applications when I learned the Chang Hon (ITF) forms.

Bunkai isn't a thing in ITF in the same way as it is in Karate or at least certainly not oyo bunkai. The moves are generally taught at face value and a punch is just a punch. In fact when I first joined Karateforums, bunkai was a very alien concept to me and I'd certainly never encountered it in my training. To be honest I still struggle with the concept.

The applications are more taught in a drill / sparring setting or through set sparring. In fact step sparring being more important in that students are supposed to play and choose their own defenses and counters to attacks and not just learn a whole list of set step sparring drills.

There are a couple of guys who break down the Chang Hon forms similarly to Iain Abernethy I've come across. After all large segments of the forms are taken from Karate Kata so why not apply the same thinking:

Stuart Anslow:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chang-Hon-Taekwon-do-Hae-Sul/dp/1906628041/

Matthew Sylvester:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Practical-Taekwondo-Roots-Matthew-Sylvester/dp/1840247584

https://youtube.com/user/practicaltaekwondo

It's interesting but I can't get fully on board with it myself. Sometimes some of the applications I've seen are more a desperate attempt to find a greater meaning to the movement for the sake of it and the application is questionable.

[IcemanSK]

I'd add Simon O'Neil to the list of Kukkiwon-style folks who do similar breakdowns along with LEE Dong Hee.

O'Neil's book here: http://www.amazon.com/Taegeuk-Cipher-Simon-John-Oneill/dp/1409226026/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1428775511&sr=8-1&keywords=Taekwondo+Cipher

I enjoy LEE's techniques & ideas. But he is able use his youth & incredible speed to his advantage. Not all of us are young and quick, anymore.

[bushido_man96]

Taekwondo Poomsae: The Fighting Scrolls, by Kingsley Umoh, is a new book I've found with some different takes on the applications of the Taegeuk and Palgwe forms. Its a different approach than O'Neil's book.

Bunkai isn't a thing in ITF in the same way as it is in Karate or at least certainly not oyo bunkai. The moves are generally taught at face value and a punch is just a punch. In fact when I first joined Karateforums, bunkai was a very alien concept to me and I'd certainly never encountered it in my training. To be honest I still struggle with the concept.

I was the same way. I knew nothing of bunkai until I heard of it hear on KF. I do like the idea behind it, though, even if it just presents a different way of looking at the same thing, which is a good way to stimulate the thought process. I haven't gotten to where I teach bunkai (or Hae Sul as a Korean concept) of entire forms, but I do present different applications of individual movements that our class does in basics from time to time. I haven't had the opportunity to break down entire forms up to this point.

[sensei8]

Taekwondo Poomsae: The Fighting Scrolls, by Kingsley Umoh, is a new book I've found with some different takes on the applications of the Taegeuk and Palgwe forms. Its a different approach than O'Neil's book.

Bunkai isn't a thing in ITF in the same way as it is in Karate or at least certainly not oyo bunkai. The moves are generally taught at face value and a punch is just a punch. In fact when I first joined Karateforums, bunkai was a very alien concept to me and I'd certainly never encountered it in my training. To be honest I still struggle with the concept.

I was the same way. I knew nothing of bunkai until I heard of it hear on KF. I do like the idea behind it, though, even if it just presents a different way of looking at the same thing, which is a good way to stimulate the thought process. I haven't gotten to where I teach bunkai (or Hae Sul as a Korean concept) of entire forms, but I do present different applications of individual movements that our class does in basics from time to time. I haven't had the opportunity to break down entire forms up to this point.

Once you do, your AHA moments will skyrocket, and you'll not just do that with one form.

[IcemanSK]

Taekwondo Poomsae: The Fighting Scrolls, by Kingsley Umoh, is a new book I've found with some different takes on the applications of the Taegeuk and Palgwe forms. Its a different approach than O'Neil's book.

I was disappointed in O'Neil's book because the photos were too dark to reveal what he was trying to convey. To me, it wasn't helpful for that reason.