TKD Forms; a running comparison

[ninjanurse]

ATA 4th dan Poomsae, Sok Bong:

84 moves. This form moves into doing some work on the floor, too, but in this form, we see a spinning heel kick, followed by a sweeping hook kick, then follows the kneeling round kick. The form continues a bit longer than the others on the ground, coming up to a more erect one-knee position while blocking and striking before rising completely. We see some familiar moves in the U-shaped punch, and an open-hand wedging block. Posing an interesting challenge are the jumping front kicks that go into three different directions, and you only get to land on one leg when going from one kick to the next. We see jumping kicks followed by standing kicks, which we tend to see the other way around in other forms. We see slow blocking a lot with both hands involved, and a palm pressing block that I don't think we've seen in any ATA forms yet. We see a consecutive front/round/hook kick combo followed by a step into a hook/round consecutive kick combo. And then an interesting upward arc hand strike or grab, maybe grabbing the chin(?), and then a hammer fist strike. After repeating some sections, the form finishes with a flurry of circular blocks from one side to the other, and then back to the ready position.

So, there we have it, 4th dan forms. All challenging, all tiring to do, and all presenting lots of challenges for the TKD practitioners.

Based on your description here I did some investigating and I will have to say I am intrigued with this form! It is very "karate" like in it's execution and appeals to my background more than the WTF Black Belt Forms-which are not as dynamic (while I presently teach a WTF based system I include some older poomsae & kata in my Black Belt curriculum for this reason, i.e, Chong Moo, Kanku Dai, etc).

Hence, I have taken it on....to add to my "library" of forms...and I am quite enjoying it! Thanks!

[bushido_man96]

I'm glad that you enjoyed it! I'm sure it provides a nice physical challenge, to boot. 84 moves is a long form! Let me know how you progress with it. Be sure you don't add it to your curriculum for your classes, though, as the ATA has copyrighted their forms. But if you are just challenging yourself with, by all means I'd say have at it!

[bushido_man96]

So ITF folks have to learn 150+ steps among three forms, GTF folks have to learn 220+ steps among four forms, ATA folks have to learn one form with 84 steps...and Kukkiwon/WTF folks have to learn one form with only 25 steps!

That seems like a markedly different emphasis on learning forms among the various taekwondo styles at the higher dan levels!

Of note: WTF Black Belts 1st Dan and up who choose to compete in Sport Poomsae must learn all Black Belt Patterns through Unsu...it is a daunting task for a new Shodan. I will agree that the patterns are short but the details are challenging.

I didn't realize that, and it seems a bit daunting, indeed. If that is the case, then why have the forms assigned to ranks?

[ninjanurse]

No, won't be adding it-I already have a full complement of forms. Just a personal challenge !!!

As for WTF-I agree, why have them assigned to ranks???? They go by age groups-the older you are the more poomsae you will have to know but your dan ranking is irrelevant. It does make the competition very challenging-you never know which 2 you will have to perform until about 2 weeks before the tournament.

I only teach poomsae above rank when they are serious about competing-otherwise I stick to the usual progression and match Poomsae to dan ranking.

[IcemanSK]

Of note: WTF Black Belts 1st Dan and up who choose to compete in Sport Poomsae must learn all Black Belt Patterns through Unsu...it is a daunting task for a new Shodan. I will agree that the patterns are short but the details are challenging.

The WTF Sport Poomsae rules for black belts are a bit odd. Once one is Dan rank (so, 16 years old or older), the Poomsae one may have to do is dependent on age, not rank. For example, if one is a 1st Dan "under 29" but older than 17, one may need to any poomsae from Tae Geuk 6-Shipjin. If one is a 1st Dan between 50-59, one needs to prepare to do any Poomsae from Koryo-Hansu (8th Dan Poomsae). 1st Dan or 7th Dan at 53 years old means nothing in sport Poomsae. Everyone does the same Poomsae.

The way it work is a tournament coordinator will choose what Poomsae they want for see for each age group and post them to the tournament website about 2-3 weeks prior to the tournament. For example, "for 20-29 BB's will all do Tae Geuk 8 in the first round, Pyongwon for second round, and Tae Bek in the finals." Therefore, if you're in that age range, you train those Poomsae in your age category, and focus on the one's when a tournament posts their list.

*ninjanurse: I didn't see your last post until after I posted this. My intent is to add further to your post above.*

[DWx]

Of note: WTF Black Belts 1st Dan and up who choose to compete in Sport Poomsae must learn all Black Belt Patterns through Unsu...it is a daunting task for a new Shodan. I will agree that the patterns are short but the details are challenging.

The WTF Sport Poomsae rules for black belts are a bit odd. Once one is Dan rank (so, 16 years old or older), the Poomsae one may have to do is dependent on age, not rank. For example, if one is a 1st Dan "under 29" but older than 17, one may need to any poomsae from Tae Geuk 6-Shipjin. If one is a 1st Dan between 50-59, one needs to prepare to do any Poomsae from Koryo-Hansu (8th Dan Poomsae). 1st Dan or 7th Dan at 53 years old means nothing in sport Poomsae. Everyone does the same Poomsae.

The way it work is a tournament coordinator will choose what Poomsae they want for see for each age group and post them to the tournament website about 2-3 weeks prior to the tournament. For example, "for 20-29 BB's will all do Tae Geuk 8 in the first round, Pyongwon for second round, and Tae Bek in the finals." Therefore, if you're in that age range, you train those Poomsae in your age category, and focus on the one's when a tournament posts their list.

*ninjanurse: I didn't see your last post until after I posted this. My intent is to add further to your post above.*

It does seem a little strenuous for the competitor! And a little bit odd as presumably from a syllabus point of view only an 8th dan should have the knowledge and ability to tackle Hansu etc. It also doesn't allow much room for individual preference or style.

Do you compete in grades of just all black belts together? In ITF, 1st dans compete against other 1sts, 2nds vs other 2nds and so on.

[IcemanSK]

It does seem a little strenuous for the competitor! And a little bit odd as presumably from a syllabus point of view only an 8th dan should have the knowledge and ability to tackle Hansu etc. It also doesn't allow much room for individual preference or style.

Do you compete in grades of just all black belts together? In ITF, 1st dans compete against other 1sts, 2nds vs other 2nds and so on.

Like most things the WTF does, they gear the rules toward elite level competitors first, and are less concerned with non-elite folks. With this in mind, sport Poomsae as it is now, makes sense. In Korea, an elite level 25 year old would have no problem doing Shipjin (5th Dan Poomsae) justice. The same would be true of a 57 year old with Hansu. The place where the difficulty lies is when a non-elite 47 year old (let's say, me ) wants to compete Poomsae. There is a big hill to climb for non-elite folks.

Tournaments that do "regular" (not "sport") Poomsae can still be found, but they are getting fewer all the time. There's a lot of money in sport Poomsae. Special unique doboks just for Poomsae are a big deal, now. Pants are different colors for male & female adults and children. And grandmaster doboks are gold tops with black pants. There is some discussion (I haven't verified it) that they are making everyone 50 years old & older (regardless of Dan rank) eligible to wear the gold dobok.

Grandmaster (7th-9th Dan)

http://taekwondohub-iloilo.blogspot.com/2014/06/Taekwondo-Hub-Iloilo-TKD-JCalicu-Diamond-Poomsae-High-Dan-Dobok.html

Poom Female/Male (1st-4th Poom less than 16 years old)

http://taekwondohub-iloilo.blogspot.com/search/label/JCalicu%20Poomsae%20Poom%20Dobok

Dan Female/Male (1st-6th Dan)

http://taekwondohub-iloilo.blogspot.com/search/label/JCalicu%20Poomsae%20Dan%20Dobok

[DWx]

It does seem a little strenuous for the competitor! And a little bit odd as presumably from a syllabus point of view only an 8th dan should have the knowledge and ability to tackle Hansu etc. It also doesn't allow much room for individual preference or style.

Do you compete in grades of just all black belts together? In ITF, 1st dans compete against other 1sts, 2nds vs other 2nds and so on.

Like most things the WTF does, they gear the rules toward elite level competitors first, and are less concerned with non-elite folks. With this in mind, sport Poomsae as it is now, makes sense. In Korea, an elite level 25 year old would have no problem doing Shipjin (5th Dan Poomsae) justice. The same would be true of a 57 year old with Hansu. The place where the difficulty lies is when a non-elite 47 year old (let's say, me ) wants to compete Poomsae. There is a big hill to climb for non-elite folks.

Tournaments that do "regular" (not "sport") Poomsae can still be found, but they are getting fewer all the time. There's a lot of money in sport Poomsae. Special unique doboks just for Poomsae are a big deal, now. Pants are different colors for male & female adults and children. And grandmaster doboks are gold tops with black pants. There is some discussion (I haven't verified it) that they are making everyone 50 years old & older (regardless of Dan rank) eligible to wear the gold dobok.

Grandmaster (7th-9th Dan)

http://taekwondohub-iloilo.blogspot.com/2014/06/Taekwondo-Hub-Iloilo-TKD-JCalicu-Diamond-Poomsae-High-Dan-Dobok.html

Poom Female/Male (1st-4th Poom less than 16 years old)

http://taekwondohub-iloilo.blogspot.com/search/label/JCalicu%20Poomsae%20Poom%20Dobok

Dan Female/Male (1st-6th Dan)

http://taekwondohub-iloilo.blogspot.com/search/label/JCalicu%20Poomsae%20Dan%20Dobok

I've seen these dobok before. It just seems odd to have one rule normally then to ignore it for competition. There must be a reason surely?

[bushido_man96]

It does seem a little strenuous for the competitor! And a little bit odd as presumably from a syllabus point of view only an 8th dan should have the knowledge and ability to tackle Hansu etc. It also doesn't allow much room for individual preference or style.

Do you compete in grades of just all black belts together? In ITF, 1st dans compete against other 1sts, 2nds vs other 2nds and so on.

Like most things the WTF does, they gear the rules toward elite level competitors first, and are less concerned with non-elite folks. With this in mind, sport Poomsae as it is now, makes sense. In Korea, an elite level 25 year old would have no problem doing Shipjin (5th Dan Poomsae) justice. The same would be true of a 57 year old with Hansu. The place where the difficulty lies is when a non-elite 47 year old (let's say, me ) wants to compete Poomsae. There is a big hill to climb for non-elite folks.

Tournaments that do "regular" (not "sport") Poomsae can still be found, but they are getting fewer all the time. There's a lot of money in sport Poomsae. Special unique doboks just for Poomsae are a big deal, now. Pants are different colors for male & female adults and children. And grandmaster doboks are gold tops with black pants. There is some discussion (I haven't verified it) that they are making everyone 50 years old & older (regardless of Dan rank) eligible to wear the gold dobok.

Grandmaster (7th-9th Dan)

http://taekwondohub-iloilo.blogspot.com/2014/06/Taekwondo-Hub-Iloilo-TKD-JCalicu-Diamond-Poomsae-High-Dan-Dobok.html

Poom Female/Male (1st-4th Poom less than 16 years old)

http://taekwondohub-iloilo.blogspot.com/search/label/JCalicu%20Poomsae%20Poom%20Dobok

Dan Female/Male (1st-6th Dan)

http://taekwondohub-iloilo.blogspot.com/search/label/JCalicu%20Poomsae%20Dan%20Dobok

I've seen these dobok before. It just seems odd to have one rule normally then to ignore it for competition. There must be a reason surely?

Wrestling is so much easier; the club usually provides the singlet.

Thank you, Heidi and Iceman, for laying out some of the nuances of WTF competitions. I was not aware of them, and had not ever seen those rules explained in any of the books I've read on WTF TKD. I couldn't imagine an ATA black belt having to learn all those forms for competition purposes!

So, Iceman, what do you do for the students that you have that want to compete? Do you mainly go to open style tournaments, or AAU events? If I recall, I think the AAU accepts WTF, ITF, and ATA forms now for TKD forms competitions, but I don't know if they only do rank-specific forms, or not. Do you have some students that go to compete at the elite-level tournaments? Also, once you become an instructor level black belt, are you required to learn the remaining black belt forms in order to provide the knowledge to pass on to those that do go to elite-level competition?

[IcemanSK]

My school doesn't often participate in tournaments. It interests me more than it does my students. We live in a part of the world that produces many elite-level poomsae & Kyorugi athletes, in large part due to the types of tournaments. Many US Poomsae Team members are Californians.

As far as open tournaments, my experience is that Korean stylists get the short end of the deal when doing Poomsae for non-Korean-stylist judges. A good Korean front stance & a good Okinawan front stance do not look the same. Most judges like TSD, for it's close resemblance to Karate, but TKD is too different for them to see as "good."

I have no experience with AAU tournaments, so I can't speak to those.