TKD Forms; a running comparison

[bushido_man96]

I noticed the strong feel of Poe Eun in Pyongwon from the first time I saw it. They are a very similar in style and challenge. The hakdari seogi (crane stance with Keumgang makki followed by a side kick) of Pyongwon is a further challenge of the nearly same technique found in Tae Bek. In Tae Bek, we go from the one-legged hakdari seogi with hands in hinged-shaped block. But in Pyongwon, we have the added challenge of Keumgang makki before doing the hinge-shaped block. The added challenge to one's balance is multiplied with the Keumgang makki of Pyongwon.

There is a paper written for Kukkiwon high Dan test that an author did at Kukkiwon. He went through each yudanja Poomsae and discussed (among other things) a possible significance of that Poomsae for that rank. In it, he notes, "Pyongwon is the shortest poomsae of all the Kukkiwon poomsae, which tells the 4th Dan that for this dan, his focus is not on his own training, the training of his students." The author goes on to say how this Poomsae is like the mirroring an instructor does "going back and forth across the dojang floor, teaching his or her students." As some may know, in order to be licensed to teach Taekwondo in Korea, one needs to have 4th Dan KKW and pass the Instructor's Course KKW teaches. One cannot own or run a dojang in Korea until 4th Dan. This author's thought (which seems reasonable to me) is that, at 4th Dan, learning to run one's own dojang (and teaching students) is the priority.

Very good points, Iceman. Its not something I would have thought about, to be honest. In this form, do they still teach that balancing sequences should be for about 10 seconds, like in Taebaek?

So ITF folks have to learn 150+ steps among three forms, GTF folks have to learn 220+ steps among four forms, ATA folks have to learn one form with 84 steps...and Kukkiwon/WTF folks have to learn one form with only 25 steps!

That seems like a markedly different emphasis on learning forms among the various taekwondo styles at the higher dan levels!

It is an interesting dynamic. If I recall properly, the ATA founder, GM HU Lee, came from General Choi's system, and I think was at least a 3rd dan under him. So he would have been familiar with most of the forms, and the grading setup.

I think one of the reasons that the ITF had multiple forms per black belt rank was because there is so much time in between gradings once they get to the black belt ranks. That way, they always have something to work on.

[IcemanSK]

No, the hakdari seogi is not supposed to be done slowly in Pyongwon, as is done in Tae Bek. They're done much quicker.

[bushido_man96]

No, the hakdari seogi is not supposed to be done slowly in Pyongwon, as is done in Tae Bek. They're done much quicker.

Ok, got it. I noticed they were done quicker, but I wasn't sure if it was chalked up to individual preference or what. Thank you.

[DWx]

Hwang Suil did the motion capture for Hwoarang. He's now the Japan team coach and still competes in the veteran division. I've met him a couple of times and was fortunate to train with him a couple of years ago. Really nice guy and I learnt so much on his seminar.

This is just a side note, but I've been re-reading A Killing Art, and after all that happened in regards to the relationship between Korea and Japan, it seems a strange juxtaposition for their to be a Japanese TKD team, with a Korean coach. But, that was all years ago.

I think he is actually one of several generations in his family to have been born in Japan.

Fun fact: Japan is the only nation to be able to submit two teams to ITF championships. One for Japanese competitors and one for Korean expats now living in Japan. This second team competes under the Korean Unification flag rather than the Japanese flag. In practice I think they all train together anyway but it's nice that they have always been allowed to do this.

[DWx]

I noticed the strong feel of Poe Eun in Pyongwon from the first time I saw it. They are a very similar in style and challenge. The hakdari seogi (crane stance with Keumgang makki followed by a side kick) of Pyongwon is a further challenge of the nearly same technique found in Tae Bek. In Tae Bek, we go from the one-legged hakdari seogi with hands in hinged-shaped block. But in Pyongwon, we have the added challenge of Keumgang makki before doing the hinge-shaped block. The added challenge to one's balance is multiplied with the Keumgang makki of Pyongwon.

There is a paper written for Kukkiwon high Dan test that an author did at Kukkiwon. He went through each yudanja Poomsae and discussed (among other things) a possible significance of that Poomsae for that rank. In it, he notes, "Pyongwon is the shortest poomsae of all the Kukkiwon poomsae, which tells the 4th Dan that for this dan, his focus is not on his own training, the training of his students." The author goes on to say how this Poomsae is like the mirroring an instructor does "going back and forth across the dojang floor, teaching his or her students." As some may know, in order to be licensed to teach Taekwondo in Korea, one needs to have 4th Dan KKW and pass the Instructor's Course KKW teaches. One cannot own or run a dojang in Korea until 4th Dan. This author's thought (which seems reasonable to me) is that, at 4th Dan, learning to run one's own dojang (and teaching students) is the priority.

That's an interesting argument. Similarly in ITF you must be a 4th dan and have passed an International Instructors Course to open your own dojang. The only thing with this is that it presumes everyone will want to teach.

[DWx]

ATA 4th dan Poomsae, Sok Bong:

84 moves. This form moves into doing some work on the floor, too, but in this form, we see a spinning heel kick, followed by a sweeping hook kick, then follows the kneeling round kick. The form continues a bit longer than the others on the ground, coming up to a more erect one-knee position while blocking and striking before rising completely. We see some familiar moves in the U-shaped punch, and an open-hand wedging block. Posing an interesting challenge are the jumping front kicks that go into three different directions, and you only get to land on one leg when going from one kick to the next. We see jumping kicks followed by standing kicks, which we tend to see the other way around in other forms. We see slow blocking a lot with both hands involved, and a palm pressing block that I don't think we've seen in any ATA forms yet. We see a consecutive front/round/hook kick combo followed by a step into a hook/round consecutive kick combo. And then an interesting upward arc hand strike or grab, maybe grabbing the chin(?), and then a hammer fist strike. After repeating some sections, the form finishes with a flurry of circular blocks from one side to the other, and then back to the ready position.

Wow the ATA form looks quite taxing on the legs with all the jump kicks. Does this follow a particular diagram on the floor?

[DWx]

GTF 4th dan hyung, Sun Duk:

68 movements, and on a very odd floor pattern. It also starts out in an odd manner, with the ready position being sitting cross-legged with fists on top of knees. Its named for Queen Sun Duk of the Silla Dynasty, and the diagram represents "Lady." It starts with a kneeling side kick/hooking kick combo, then gets up and goes from there. We see the GTF hallmark of lots of kicking techniques, especially jumping kicks, in this form like the past GTF black belt additions. We see combos like inner crescent kick to jump spin inner crescent kick, a high hooking kick followed by a flying hooking kick, etc. There are also standing kicking combinations like a front snap kick followed by a back leg side piercing kick. There is even a high twisting kick followed by a jumping twisting kick. Another tough one is the middle outward vertical checking kick, which then has to stop its motion and go into a consecutive side thrusting kick. We also see a 3 kick combination where there is a low side checking kick, followed consecutively by a high side thrusting kick, and then followed by a high reverse turning kick. The form finishes by going back to the knees with kneeling kicks, and ends in the same starting position. Another challenging GTF form.

Watching this is almost like deja vu! There are whole sections of Yoo Sin, Choong Jang, Moon Moo and Ul Gi in there!!! Almost looks like it's an amalgamation of the ITF 3rd and 4th dan patterns. Like seriously the same ones but spliced together with some extra kicking combinations thrown in. Must be a nightmare trying to learn this plus the ITF ones too.

[truejim]

Wow the ATA form looks quite taxing on the legs with all the jump kicks. Does this follow a particular diagram on the floor?

As I understand it, all ATA forms are based on the same floor pattern, the Songahm Star, an 8-pointed star-shape. http://taekwondo.wikia.com/wiki/Songahm_Star

Not every ATA form uses the entire star though. Sok Bong uses an "hourglass" floor pattern within the star. Here's a diagram: http://frontiernet.net/~bovitz/tkd/documents/sokbong_form.pdf

[bushido_man96]

Wow the ATA form looks quite taxing on the legs with all the jump kicks. Does this follow a particular diagram on the floor?

As I understand it, all ATA forms are based on the same floor pattern, the Songahm Star, an 8-pointed star-shape. http://taekwondo.wikia.com/wiki/Songahm_Star

Not every ATA form uses the entire star though. Sok Bong uses an "hourglass" floor pattern within the star. Here's a diagram: http://frontiernet.net/~bovitz/tkd/documents/sokbong_form.pdf

Thanks for posting that, truejim. Yes, all of the ATA forms fall somewhere along the Songham Star pattern, but since I've never learned this one, I wasn't sure where it fell. I think the only ATA form that might follow the entire star is the 9th degree form, but this is just what I have heard.

[ninjanurse]

So ITF folks have to learn 150+ steps among three forms, GTF folks have to learn 220+ steps among four forms, ATA folks have to learn one form with 84 steps...and Kukkiwon/WTF folks have to learn one form with only 25 steps!

That seems like a markedly different emphasis on learning forms among the various taekwondo styles at the higher dan levels!

Of note: WTF Black Belts 1st Dan and up who choose to compete in Sport Poomsae must learn all Black Belt Patterns through Unsu...it is a daunting task for a new Shodan. I will agree that the patterns are short but the details are challenging.