TKD Forms; a running comparison

[DWx]

NOTE: if you go back to page 3, I've added Jee Sang to the list of forms for 4th gup discussion, if you are interested in see that form.

I also added in Taegeuk 2 on the 2nd gup discussion...I didn't realize I had left it out...

So, just an update here, I've been spending the last month or so practicing all 4 of the white belt forms here, Chon Ji, Taegeuk and Palgwe 1, and Songham 1 (and reviewing the one-steps). Here are some observations I have so far....

1. Very few of my forms end on the same spot. Songham 1 is very close. Palgwe 1 gets close, but Chon Ji is off some, but I don't do any footwork adjustment; I just step from stance to stance. Taegeuk 1 doesn't even get close to being on the same spot. I think it must have something to do with the walking stances. I think I make them too long and too wide.

2. I don't like the walking stances. I think I make them too long and wide, and if I narrow them up, I don't feel like I have a very comfortable base. But I am going to try to focus on this more now.

I'm surprised at Chon Ji being off. It is symmetrical so even if there were a difference in the dimensions of your walking stance vs L stance, this should be canceled out as whatever you do to the left you do to the right. How about the turns? Are you gaining or losing distance here?

Walking stance is a hard stance to gauge properly. This description is from the Kukkiwon website. Hopefully it helps.

Ap Seogi-Walking Stance

Stance of taking one walking step forward

The width between the two feet is about the length of one walking step and the center of gravity remains in the middle with the trunk in an upright position.

For contrast, in ITF, a walking stance is:

* one and a half shoulder widths long measured from big toe to big toe

* one shoulder width wide measured from the centres of the feet

* weight adjusted so that it falls through the centre of the stance and the front knee should be directly over the ankle so the shin is perpendicular to the floor

* toes of the front foot point forward and back foot is out by 25 degrees.

Not such a big deal in Chon Ji as it's symmetrical (as long as you remain consistent) but in higher grade patterns, if the ratio is off compared to the other stances you won't get back on your mark.

[bushido_man96]

Walking stance is a hard stance to gauge properly. This description is from the Kukkiwon website. Hopefully it helps.

Ap Seogi-Walking Stance

Stance of taking one walking step forward

The width between the two feet is about the length of one walking step and the center of gravity remains in the middle with the trunk in an upright position.

Thanks for the description here, Iceman. I had read somewhere in one of my books that the insides of the heels were supposed to be on the same line. Either way, I was doing the stance about shoulder width apart, which was way too much, although much more comfortable to me. I did a session of forms work last week focusing on Taegeuk 1 only, and narrowed the stance considerably, and that really helped me out with the form line. I was getting much closer to ending on my starting spot.

For contrast, in ITF, a walking stance is:

* one and a half shoulder widths long measured from big toe to big toe

* one shoulder width wide measured from the centres of the feet

* weight adjusted so that it falls through the centre of the stance and the front knee should be directly over the ankle so the shin is perpendicular to the floor

* toes of the front foot point forward and back foot is out by 25 degrees.

Not such a big deal in Chon Ji as it's symmetrical (as long as you remain consistent) but in higher grade patterns, if the ratio is off compared to the other stances you won't get back on your mark.

This is kind of a funny point for me, seeing what the ITF calls a walking stance, and what the WTF calls a walking stance, and in my styles of practice, I've never used a stance referred to as a walking stance. The ITF walking stance is what I've always called a front stance.

I think with Chon Ji, I'm losing something in the turns, like you mention. Perhaps my pivot foot is slipping some. It ends pretty close, but I can't seem to get it to land right on.

[IcemanSK]

Here's another applications video based on KKW Poomsae.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152700013047253&set=vb.207615097252&type=2&theater

[DWx]

This is kind of a funny point for me, seeing what the ITF calls a walking stance, and what the WTF calls a walking stance, and in my styles of practice, I've never used a stance referred to as a walking stance. The ITF walking stance is what I've always called a front stance.

I think with Chon Ji, I'm losing something in the turns, like you mention. Perhaps my pivot foot is slipping some. It ends pretty close, but I can't seem to get it to land right on.

In truth WTF should maybe call theirs a front stance as "ap" 앞 translates as front.

Not sure what "gunnun" means exactly, but pretty sure that doesn't mean "walking". I had a book somewhere on the Korean language and terminology, will see if I can dig it out.

If you feel comfortable sharing maybe post a video?

[bushido_man96]

This is kind of a funny point for me, seeing what the ITF calls a walking stance, and what the WTF calls a walking stance, and in my styles of practice, I've never used a stance referred to as a walking stance. The ITF walking stance is what I've always called a front stance.

I think with Chon Ji, I'm losing something in the turns, like you mention. Perhaps my pivot foot is slipping some. It ends pretty close, but I can't seem to get it to land right on.

In truth WTF should maybe call theirs a front stance as "ap" 앞 translates as front.

Not sure what "gunnun" means exactly, but pretty sure that doesn't mean "walking". I had a book somewhere on the Korean language and terminology, will see if I can dig it out.

If you feel comfortable sharing maybe post a video?

I can try to put a video together of me doing those four forms. The more I practice now, the more I think that perhaps my front stance is too wide, as well. But, I like to have a wider stance, as I feel more stable, and like I get good power generation from it.

Here's another applications video based on KKW Poomsae.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152700013047253&set=vb.207615097252&type=2&theater

More nice looking techniques. I'd like to see some pre-application form segment, to see if he is taking some of these combinations from the form segments, or if they are just various moves thrown together from the forms.

I know I've been off a bit, but don't worry, I'll be kicking up the third dan comparisons hopefully this week!

[bushido_man96]

Well, Danielle asked for it, so you guys get it: heavyweight TKD patterns!

These are me do each of the 4 "white belt" forms that I've been working on and discussing here. I do Chon Ji, Palgwe 1, Taegeuk 1, then Songham 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXPl3udPIkU&list=PL1638C81C7CB19AC1&index=7

Its a little sideways, and you can't hear anything I'm saying that well because of the echo, but I try to do some deliberate stepping after each of the forms to show how far off I end after each one in regards to my starting point. My starting point is the side of one of the wrestling ring's center start lines, where wrestler's would start in the neutral position. Then I step back to that position after finishing to reset for the next form.

Chon Ji was quite a ways off, nearly one stance length away, and one stance length back from the starting point. Palgwe 1 ended about 2 stance lengths back of the starting point. Taegeuk 1 ended about 1 stance length back of the starting point. Songham 1 was off just about a step, if that.

After filming these, I did continue to work on them, and focused on narrowing my front stance a bit. That seemed to help, and started getting closer and closer to my starting point with each form. Songham 1 remains my most accurate form, but I think the reason why is because it only goes forward and back, and there are on 90 degree turns with the front stances, so I'm not battling the width of stance issue in that form.

So, any comments are appreciated, on anything. I probably don't look very crisp, but I'm working on it. Hopefully, I can get some more of these videos up and going in the future, as well, if not to just discuss some of the differences between the way the TTA does the Chang On forms and the ITF.

Please comment on them, and I'll keep working on 3rd dan stuff!

[hammer]

Well, Danielle asked for it, so you guys get it: heavyweight TKD patterns!

These are me do each of the 4 "white belt" forms that I've been working on and discussing here. I do Chon Ji, Palgwe 1, Taegeuk 1, then Songham 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXPl3udPIkU&list=PL1638C81C7CB19AC1&index=7

Its a little sideways, and you can't hear anything I'm saying that well because of the echo, but I try to do some deliberate stepping after each of the forms to show how far off I end after each one in regards to my starting point. My starting point is the side of one of the wrestling ring's center start lines, where wrestler's would start in the neutral position. Then I step back to that position after finishing to reset for the next form.

Chon Ji was quite a ways off, nearly one stance length away, and one stance length back from the starting point. Palgwe 1 ended about 2 stance lengths back of the starting point. Taegeuk 1 ended about 1 stance length back of the starting point. Songham 1 was off just about a step, if that.

After filming these, I did continue to work on them, and focused on narrowing my front stance a bit. That seemed to help, and started getting closer and closer to my starting point with each form. Songham 1 remains my most accurate form, but I think the reason why is because it only goes forward and back, and there are on 90 degree turns with the front stances, so I'm not battling the width of stance issue in that form.

So, any comments are appreciated, on anything. I probably don't look very crisp, but I'm working on it. Hopefully, I can get some more of these videos up and going in the future, as well, if not to just discuss some of the differences between the way the TTA does the Chang On forms and the ITF.

Please comment on them, and I'll keep working on 3rd dan stuff!

Thanks for posting these. Takes a lot to put forms up on YouTube for all to see...

One quick observation and question I have right away is that your stance transitions are direct...in TKD I was taught to make stance transitions by always coming to center, but in the Kyokushin kata I have learned so far, the stance transitions are more direct. Is what I was taught in TKD unique to the school I went to?

[bushido_man96]

Are we ready for 3rd dan? I'm ready for 3rd dan, so here we go!

ITF 3rd dan tuls:

Sam Il: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEAZR7-EN5U

Yoo Sin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWZnRh6bssQ

Choi Yong:

Sam Il: 33 movements, along the + diagram. New blocks include a reverse knife hand block, ridge hand wedging blocks, ridge hand double guarding blocks, outer forearm high outward block (with a low block as well). There is a back elbow thrust done in a diagonal stance, double fist low punches, and for kicks there are a middle twisting kick, and a sweeping kick. We also see some front leg side kicks in this form, and a front leg front snap kick. The twist kick is performed with the hands forward in a reinforced knife hand side block, likely some kind of grab prior to the kick. The hands are held in the position until the kick is completed. Fans of the Tekken fighting game series will recognize the sweeping kick segment of this form as one of Hworang's "victory dances." This form seems to take a step back from the complexities we saw in 2nd dan forms, but it still would require attention to the detail involving the footwork here. This looks like a form that I could do akin to Gae Baek, with lots of power.

Yoo Sin: 68 movements. This form starts with what is called a "releasing motion," simulating a bear hug defense, followed by "angle punches" over each of the shoulders, attacking the aggressor behind you. I also think of this section as elbow strikes, as well. Breaking down the moves further, you can find the angle punch could also translate into grabbing the released wrist or hand, and attempting to work joint manipulations. The next section goes into hooking blocks (we do them as knife hands) followed by punches (this section repeats), along with outer forearm and circular blocks. Next up, a low x-block that goes to high, and then into a wrist grabbing motion There is a section in the form that has Naifanchi feel to it, with waving kicks and outer forearm blocks. Ideas here could include sweeping and takedown motions. The section of the form with the U-shaped punch, or us, includes knee-level side kicks prior to going into the waving kick section. The most wonderful part of this form for me (can you sense my sarcasm??) is the target inner crescent kick into the side kick section. When I saw this form being performed as a lower rank, I thought I would really enjoy doing it. But I was wrooong! This form has never felt good for me, and to this day, I'd still rather not perform it. It starts off feeling really powerful with the releasing motion and the hooking blocks/punching, and into the X-blocks and front kicks. After that, the stepping forward and backward with the knife hand guarding blocks and the double forearm blocks seems long, drawn out, and without the power. From there, it goes into a bit of a power stage, but with some slow tension movements that seem to kill the timing for me. The waving kick section is ok, but the target kick section is a nuclear meltdown for me. This form is our 3rd dan decided form in the TTA.

Choi Yong: 46 movements, back to the + diagram. This form appears awkward to me, but I look forward to the challenge of it. There are W-shaped knife hand blocks, and reverse hooking kicks that we see, which appear to be done with a consecutive side kick. The form starts with some very short combinations going to the front and then to the back a couple of times. Then it extends a bit going into the sections with kicking combinations. We get a 3 kick combination, with a 45 degree round kick, followed by the reverse hooking kick/side kick. This repeats on both sides, as much of the form appears to. We get two more reverse hooking kicks before the finish. This form is a 5th or 6th dan form in the TTA.

GTF 3rd dan hyung, Pyong Hwa:

This form has 50 movements, to symbolize the 50 countries that founded the United Nations Organization in San Francisco. The name and diagram (an I with a small v at the bottom) mean "peace." We see more of the balance and repeat kicking we saw in the other GTF black belt form continue here, but with much less volume. Still, I see a pretty challenging form. Slow middle kicks followed by faster, higher section kicks in a consecutive motion. We see my friend the target crescent kick return, with a consecutive high side thrusting kick (where the ball of the foot appears to be the attacking tool). Flying side kick and front snap kick are here as well, and one of the flying front snap kicks appears to travel backwards. Twist kicks appear in this form, too. It also appears to use a lot of open hand techniques. Looks like fun!

WTF/Kukki 3rd dan Poomsae, Taebaek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCx6HVAtijI

26 movements. Taebaek means "supreme brightness," and symbolizes the spirit of Mt. Baekdoo. The Poomsae follows the I pattern. The form opens with a double low section knife hand opening block in a rear or tiger stance, followed by a front kick/double punch combination. The next section follows with what is called a swallow form knife hand strike, which includes a knife hand high block with the other hand, like seen in the second move of Choong Moo hyung of the ITF. From there, a series of punches follows, but after the swallow form knife hand and each of the punches, a deliberate twisting of the palm (and opening of the hand after the punches) is done to simulate grabbing and twisting of the opponent's wrist. The bottom of the I shows a heavy "blocking" set with a diamond middle block, pulling uppercut to high section, middle punch, a front leg side kick from crane stance, then to an elbow strike, a la Yol Gok style. This repeats on the other side, and the form goes back up the I with a section not unlike the spear hand, releasing/turning and spin to back fist section of Do San. At the top of the I are a combination with a scissors block and front kick with punches. Overall, I like the combinations that are put together in this form, as it seems to have some unique moves, along with the flavor of some other forms I'm familiar with.

ATA 3rd dan Poomsae, Chung San:

83 moves, and we see the single-arm technique, along with some circular blocking motions. Kicking keeps getting tougher, and we see slow side kicks followed by repeat fast side kicks. There is a combination of outer crescent kick followed by spin crescent kick, done from a neutral stance. There are target kicks, as well, done with inner crescent kicks, and jump spinning inner crescent kicks. There are also some interesting hand techniques coming into play, with a two finger poke with a reinforced knife hand below the elbow. At the beginning, the punch you see is a four-knuckle punch that comes after the circular knife hand strike. We get repeating round kicks as well, and towards the end we see spin heel kick followed by a jump reverse side kick. We also get a triple repeating kick sequence, a hook kick/round kick/side kick combination. There is also some strange gallop in the middle of the form where it looks like he is winding up a jump front kick, but instead lands to a blocking motion of some kind, then the jump front kick comes a few moves later. I only achieved 2nd dan rank in the ATA, so this form is one I've seen done a lot, but never done myself.

There we have it, 3rd dan material, over and done. Bring on the comments!

[bushido_man96]

Well, Danielle asked for it, so you guys get it: heavyweight TKD patterns!

These are me do each of the 4 "white belt" forms that I've been working on and discussing here. I do Chon Ji, Palgwe 1, Taegeuk 1, then Songham 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXPl3udPIkU&list=PL1638C81C7CB19AC1&index=7

Its a little sideways, and you can't hear anything I'm saying that well because of the echo, but I try to do some deliberate stepping after each of the forms to show how far off I end after each one in regards to my starting point. My starting point is the side of one of the wrestling ring's center start lines, where wrestler's would start in the neutral position. Then I step back to that position after finishing to reset for the next form.

Chon Ji was quite a ways off, nearly one stance length away, and one stance length back from the starting point. Palgwe 1 ended about 2 stance lengths back of the starting point. Taegeuk 1 ended about 1 stance length back of the starting point. Songham 1 was off just about a step, if that.

After filming these, I did continue to work on them, and focused on narrowing my front stance a bit. That seemed to help, and started getting closer and closer to my starting point with each form. Songham 1 remains my most accurate form, but I think the reason why is because it only goes forward and back, and there are on 90 degree turns with the front stances, so I'm not battling the width of stance issue in that form.

So, any comments are appreciated, on anything. I probably don't look very crisp, but I'm working on it. Hopefully, I can get some more of these videos up and going in the future, as well, if not to just discuss some of the differences between the way the TTA does the Chang On forms and the ITF.

Please comment on them, and I'll keep working on 3rd dan stuff!

Thanks for posting these. Takes a lot to put forms up on YouTube for all to see...

One quick observation and question I have right away is that your stance transitions are direct...in TKD I was taught to make stance transitions by always coming to center, but in the Kyokushin kata I have learned so far, the stance transitions are more direct. Is what I was taught in TKD unique to the school I went to?

You are welcome. I don't really put them for all to see, but just the one's I want to see them.

Yes, our stance transitions are always done direct. Some of the ITF styles do it differently, but I teach for the students to try not to stop in the middle of the transition. I teach them to bring the transitioning leg close to base leg, but not to stop. I try to use the turn to generate hip rotation for the technique I'm going into.

[DWx]

Well, Danielle asked for it, so you guys get it: heavyweight TKD patterns!

These are me do each of the 4 "white belt" forms that I've been working on and discussing here. I do Chon Ji, Palgwe 1, Taegeuk 1, then Songham 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXPl3udPIkU&list=PL1638C81C7CB19AC1&index=7

Its a little sideways, and you can't hear anything I'm saying that well because of the echo, but I try to do some deliberate stepping after each of the forms to show how far off I end after each one in regards to my starting point. My starting point is the side of one of the wrestling ring's center start lines, where wrestler's would start in the neutral position. Then I step back to that position after finishing to reset for the next form.

Chon Ji was quite a ways off, nearly one stance length away, and one stance length back from the starting point. Palgwe 1 ended about 2 stance lengths back of the starting point. Taegeuk 1 ended about 1 stance length back of the starting point. Songham 1 was off just about a step, if that.

After filming these, I did continue to work on them, and focused on narrowing my front stance a bit. That seemed to help, and started getting closer and closer to my starting point with each form. Songham 1 remains my most accurate form, but I think the reason why is because it only goes forward and back, and there are on 90 degree turns with the front stances, so I'm not battling the width of stance issue in that form.

So, any comments are appreciated, on anything. I probably don't look very crisp, but I'm working on it. Hopefully, I can get some more of these videos up and going in the future, as well, if not to just discuss some of the differences between the way the TTA does the Chang On forms and the ITF.

Please comment on them, and I'll keep working on 3rd dan stuff!

Thanks for posting Brian Looks pretty strong.

So I can't speak for the other forms but in Chon Ji I think you are right in the stance width causing the shift off the mark. The width of your front stance is similar to the length of your L-stance so you are gaining half a stance on the two turns to the front and back and not regaining this ground with your L-stance. To get back on the mark you would either have to narrow your front stance or increase the length of your L-stance.

I hope this is okay? (I will take it down if you like) but maybe this will help demonstrate:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6nuE0F8dpfXM0JZdmh3dk80M3M/view?usp=sharing

The red pair of lines and blue pair of lines are the same distance apart on each photo. The red pair is the width I would normally teach a front stance to be (inline with your shoulder sockets), the blue pair is the actual width of your front stance. As you can see the blue pair actually matches the length of your L-stance. Whereas I would typically suggest an L-stance is 1.5 times whatever your stance width is in a front stance. You are effectively crab walking yourself half a stance to your left every time you turn to face the front or back. To make up for this and get back on the mark, you either need to pull the front stance width in to the red lines OR make your L-stance 1.5x the blue length.

Hope that makes sense?

Edited February 27, 2015 by DWx