TKD Forms; a running comparison

[DWx]

Now, I have a question for you Danielle, in regards to the three forms per rank at black belt....how do you break up the learning and practicing of each? Do you learn Kwang Gae first, and spend some months getting it down, before going on to Po Eun? Or do you get them all three force-fed at the beginning of your time in the rank, and then sort them out as you go? Is there a recommended teaching premise here, or does it vary from instructor to instructor in the ITF?

I don't think there is an official order. Just that you have to learn all 3 before you grade. In the Encyclopedia it gives the order as Kwang Gae, Po Eun then Ge Baek but we generally don't follow this order. Usually we tend to do Kwang Gae first as it's nice and symmetrical, then Ge Baek, then Po Eun. I wouldn't spend months getting it down, I think it's better to just learn the diagram then work on the technicalities of all three together as there is a lot of crossover. The other consideration we have, is that in ITF pattern competition you typically perform a choice form (chosen from the 3 from your grade) then get designated one which can be anything up to and including your grade. So if you want to compete you gave to at least be able to get through the pattern.

[bushido_man96]

Now, I have a question for you Danielle, in regards to the three forms per rank at black belt....how do you break up the learning and practicing of each? Do you learn Kwang Gae first, and spend some months getting it down, before going on to Po Eun? Or do you get them all three force-fed at the beginning of your time in the rank, and then sort them out as you go? Is there a recommended teaching premise here, or does it vary from instructor to instructor in the ITF?

I don't think there is an official order. Just that you have to learn all 3 before you grade. In the Encyclopedia it gives the order as Kwang Gae, Po Eun then Ge Baek but we generally don't follow this order. Usually we tend to do Kwang Gae first as it's nice and symmetrical, then Ge Baek, then Po Eun. I wouldn't spend months getting it down, I think it's better to just learn the diagram then work on the technicalities of all three together as there is a lot of crossover. The other consideration we have, is that in ITF pattern competition you typically perform a choice form (chosen from the 3 from your grade) then get designated one which can be anything up to and including your grade. So if you want to compete you gave to at least be able to get through the pattern.

I see. I didn't think about the competition aspect of it, but that makes sense. If the students are going to compete, they have to be on their game with all their forms, which is a good thing. Did you learn them in that order, or did you do bits of pieces of each?

Keumgang is a deceptively difficult poomsae. BALANCE is challenge of this poomsae. In competition, the one-legged Hakdari seogi (Crane Stance) are held on one leg for 5-6 seconds. When GM PARK Hae Man (one of the designers of the Tae Guek, Pal Gwe & Yudanja poomsae) teaches it, he says, "from the beginning to the end of the technique, you should balance for 10 seconds. Twelve is better!" So, from the point one begins to raise their foot off the ground, until the block is finished should be 12 seconds! A real challenge.

I didn't realize the amount of time that was expected to stay in the crane stance. When it comes time to focus on this form, I will keep it in mind. I find it an interesting coincidence that this 2nd dan form and the ATA's 2nd dan form have these similar balancing moves in common.

[bushido_man96]

Juche: 45 moves. There is much to be said about the conundrum between Juche and Ko Dang, but I'll leave that topic out, because it tends to fall along some political lines between Choi's time of being in South Korea, and then joining North Korea when he didn't get any support in South Korea. So, the form. This one will be nasty for me. New techniques include a downward back fist strike, one leg stance parallel block, inner forearm parallel blocks (wedging blocks), a hooking kick which looks like an outward crescent kick that stops abruptly at the apex, knife hand mid air strike (with a spin) and a flying consecutive punch, pick-shape kick which appears to be a straight leg axe kick, arc hand crescent strike, downward elbow thrust, twin inward knife hand strike, a downward punch, outer forearm downward block, and then the tricky kicking....dodging reverse turning kicks, and flying two-direction kicks. Footwork includes backward double-step-sliding.

Holy cow, how hard can this form get?! You get to do a slow side kick that then becomes a hooking kick that spins around slowly to hook an attacker behind you. You get hooking kick/consecutive side kick. This form repeats itself pretty well, so you get all these kicking techniques on each side, like the jumping/dodging turning kicks. There is a section in the middle of the form with retreating hand techniques, where there is blocking and then downward elbow thrusts, and blocking and downward punch, showing a section where the practitioner is really subduing and enemy and finishing him off. Then there is the two-direction kick, and the jumping consecutive punches. In my eyes, a really tough form, and things aren't going to get easier from here for 2nd dans.

When I did TKD this was the highest form...once 2nd Dan we did Gae Bek, Choong Jang, and Se Jong.

I'd put it at or near the top for difficulty in the ITF forms set.

I'd have to agree. Very tough. Between that one and Jook Am, I'm not sure I will survive 2nd dan forms practice!

[bushido_man96]

Here are some applications of techniques found in Kukki-TKD poomsae (both Tae Geuk & Yudanja).

Thanks for sharing that clip. Some of those I like, and some I wonder, but they are all worth exploring. That guy is quick!

Some quick notes here for all you members that are so graciously following my ramblings in this thread...

First, thanks for reading and coming along so far! I'm really enjoying it, even though it seems a bit out of order at times. I'm loving the feedback, and want as much as you can throw in here!

Second, I plan to fill in on the other GTF color belt patterns, Jee Sang and Dhan Goon, when I get time to read them over a bit to go along with the videos. I'll let you know when that happens, and will go back to edit the appropriate threads.

Third, this is mainly to kind of clear up the rank order that my current association uses, and perhaps a bit of a reason why. In appendix ii of Stuart Anslow's The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-do Patterns, there is a chart that shows the pattern orders of various TKD organizations. Our association parallels that of GM Hee, Il Cho's AIMAA:

AIMAA TTA

Chon Ji Chon Ji

Dan Gun Dan Gun

Do San Bo Chung

Won Hyo Do San

Yul Gok Won Hyo

Joong Gun Yul Gok

Toi Gye Joong Gun

Hwa Rang Toi Gye

Choong Moo Hwa Rang

Kwang Gae Choong Moo

That ends the gup order for each of ours. Then starts black belt.

Po Eun Kwang Gae.....1st dan

Ge Baek Poe Eun..........2nd dan (recommended for TTA)

Yoo Sin Ge Baek.........3rd dan (2nd dan for TTA)

Choong Jang, Ul Ji Se Jong.........4th dan (3rd recommended for TTA)

Ko Dang, Sam Il Yoo Sin.........5th dan (3rd dan for TTA)

This is not the exhaustive list, but goes up close to my level. I do Choong Jang at 4th dan, and I think 5th dan form is Choi Yong.

Thanks so far, everyone!

[DWx]

Juche: 45 moves. There is much to be said about the conundrum between Juche and Ko Dang, but I'll leave that topic out, because it tends to fall along some political lines between Choi's time of being in South Korea, and then joining North Korea when he didn't get any support in South Korea. So, the form. This one will be nasty for me. New techniques include a downward back fist strike, one leg stance parallel block, inner forearm parallel blocks (wedging blocks), a hooking kick which looks like an outward crescent kick that stops abruptly at the apex, knife hand mid air strike (with a spin) and a flying consecutive punch, pick-shape kick which appears to be a straight leg axe kick, arc hand crescent strike, downward elbow thrust, twin inward knife hand strike, a downward punch, outer forearm downward block, and then the tricky kicking....dodging reverse turning kicks, and flying two-direction kicks. Footwork includes backward double-step-sliding.

Holy cow, how hard can this form get?! You get to do a slow side kick that then becomes a hooking kick that spins around slowly to hook an attacker behind you. You get hooking kick/consecutive side kick. This form repeats itself pretty well, so you get all these kicking techniques on each side, like the jumping/dodging turning kicks. There is a section in the middle of the form with retreating hand techniques, where there is blocking and then downward elbow thrusts, and blocking and downward punch, showing a section where the practitioner is really subduing and enemy and finishing him off. Then there is the two-direction kick, and the jumping consecutive punches. In my eyes, a really tough form, and things aren't going to get easier from here for 2nd dans.

When I did TKD this was the highest form...once 2nd Dan we did Gae Bek, Choong Jang, and Se Jong.

I'd put it at or near the top for difficulty in the ITF forms set.

I'd have to agree. Very tough. Between that one and Jook Am, I'm not sure I will survive 2nd dan forms practice!

Ignoring the possible political motivations behind the Kodang to Juche change (easy to find more on this through Google), one of the reasons I was told that this is for 2nd dans is that 2nd dan tends to be the physical peak for a lot of students; you get a lot of mid-20s 2nd dans who ought to be at their best physical peak. Idea was that the General really wanted to test those moving from 1st to 2nd dan and Kodang wasn't and enough.

To confuse the issue though, the ITF group run under the General's son, GM Choi Jung Hwa, have reverted to the old name "Kodang" for the Juche form. So nowadays you get original-Kodang, Juche and Kodang 2.0 which is really Juche in disguise.

Though I don't have a video of me doing the whole thing (you wouldn't want to watch it!), I do have a video of me doing the split kick from Juche: http://youtu.be/bdeM2XhIACY

Not quite high enough or as much extension on the legs as I should but it's a start

[bushido_man96]

Ignoring the possible political motivations behind the Kodang to Juche change (easy to find more on this through Google), one of the reasons I was told that this is for 2nd dans is that 2nd dan tends to be the physical peak for a lot of students; you get a lot of mid-20s 2nd dans who ought to be at their best physical peak. Idea was that the General really wanted to test those moving from 1st to 2nd dan and Kodang wasn't and enough.

To confuse the issue though, the ITF group run under the General's son, GM Choi Jung Hwa, have reverted to the old name "Kodang" for the Juche form. So nowadays you get original-Kodang, Juche and Kodang 2.0 which is really Juche in disguise.

I think I recall reading about this in Gillis' book, A Killing Art. So much going on there, its really too bad that some forms actually got caught up in that mess. But, it gives more forms for me to look at, so I'm the winner!

Though I don't have a video of me doing the whole thing (you wouldn't want to watch it!), I do have a video of me doing the split kick from Juche: http://youtu.be/bdeM2XhIACY

Not quite high enough or as much extension on the legs as I should but it's a start

I thought the kick looked pretty good, Danielle. You made good contact to break both boards, so kudos to you! Yours looked like a good split, too. Mine won't look near that good. It will look more like a side kick to one side, with a trail leg to the other. Can you do full side splits to get that extension?

[bushido_man96]

NOTE: if you go back to page 3, I've added Jee Sang to the list of forms for 4th gup discussion, if you are interested in see that form.

I also added in Taegeuk 2 on the 2nd gup discussion...I didn't realize I had left it out...

So, just an update here, I've been spending the last month or so practicing all 4 of the white belt forms here, Chon Ji, Taegeuk and Palgwe 1, and Songham 1 (and reviewing the one-steps). Here are some observations I have so far....

1. Very few of my forms end on the same spot. Songham 1 is very close. Palgwe 1 gets close, but Chon Ji is off some, but I don't do any footwork adjustment; I just step from stance to stance. Taegeuk 1 doesn't even get close to being on the same spot. I think it must have something to do with the walking stances. I think I make them too long and too wide.

2. I don't like the walking stances. I think I make them too long and wide, and if I narrow them up, I don't feel like I have a very comfortable base. But I am going to try to focus on this more now.

[IcemanSK]

Walking stance is a hard stance to gauge properly. This description is from the Kukkiwon website. Hopefully it helps.

Ap Seogi-Walking Stance

Stance of taking one walking step forward

The width between the two feet is about the length of one walking step and the center of gravity remains in the middle with the trunk in an upright position.

[IcemanSK]

FWIW, I'd thought I'd share my observations of the role Poomsae has played in Kukk-TKD in the last 30 years. Or at least my experience of it.

My first instructor had no direct connection to GM PARK Hae Man (as my current one does) so that, I'm sure colors my experience a lot. Had I been connected to GM PARK then, I'm sure Poomsae would have been taken more seriously. For us, and many other schools in the early-mid 80's, sparring was everything! Poomsae was less important to say the least. There were no seminars on Poomsae...no standardized way of doing them. The one thing everyone seemed to agree on was Koryo. It was the one Poomsae that students concentrated on more than others. It fact, in my experience, no matter what BB rank one was, it was the Poomsae one performed (or was asked to perform). I remember buying a Poomsae book by GM Pugil Kwon in around 1986 (it was written in 1984) and it was the first time I'd even heard of Keumgang and Tae Bek..let alone seen them performed. I did know anything about higher rank Poomsae (Pyongwon etc.) until much later.

My understanding (I was in an ITF-style school at that time, so I'm not sure), is that Poomsae began to be standardized in the late 90's when Kukkiwon added their "Instructors Course" for foreign (non-Korean) instructors and pushing the importance of the Instructors Course for Korean masters abroad. As a result, the value of Poomsae increased in the eyes of Kukki-TKDoan around the world.

There has been quite an evolution of the importance placed on Kukki-TKD Poomsae in my experience in the last 30 years.

[DWx]

I thought the kick looked pretty good, Danielle. You made good contact to break both boards, so kudos to you! Yours looked like a good split, too. Mine won't look near that good. It will look more like a side kick to one side, with a trail leg to the other. Can you do full side splits to get that extension?

Thanks Brian can't get full splits. Far from it actually. I can get only around 90-100 degrees on a side split. Front splits are a little better but I have really tights quads so not at full splits with either leg. So even if you're not so flexible there's hope! It's the twisting kick side of mine that I'm not happy with and that is a flexibility issue.