TKD Forms; a running comparison

[IcemanSK]

I can't wait for the black belt forms discussion. *grabs popcorn*

[sensei8]

I can't wait for the black belt forms discussion. *grabs popcorn*

I agree!! I'll get the drinks!!

[bushido_man96]

Now, we will dig into the black belt forms, where the ITF typically has 3 forms per rank, the GTF adds one to give them 4 (except for at the 5th dan level), and the WTF only has one per rank. But, it gives us lots for review and discussion, so here we go!

ITF 1st dan Tuls:

Kwang Gae hyung:

Po Uen hyung:

Ge Baek hyung: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGNd6F5_2G8

Here is a video of me doing Ge Baek, where you can see some of the differences in how we move: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqrnrhio69U&index=3&list=PLon1GNgZPzV65jiQitS1fnyBTI2rkpnEo

Kwang Gae: The Encyclopedia calls it 39 movements, but with the double kicks, it would add up to a few more techniques than that. We get quite a bit of new stuff, too. Parallel ready stance with Heaven Hand as ready position, and from there, the form starts in a very slow manner, with tension upset punches. There are also some footwork additions, with forward double stepping, backward foot shifting, and forward double step turning, seen toward the end of the form. There is also the knife hand low front block in closed stance, done in a circular motion, followed by the outward pressing kick/side kick consecutive kick, done on both sides. We also see the high leg lift with stomp into the back fist strikes, then shifting into front stance to the double forearm blocks, then shifting to the low block with the reverse hand, to slow spear hand thrust. There is a lot of concentration that goes on in this form, and although it has its slow spots, the power points of the form make up for it, I think. I always enjoyed performing this one, and the middle section, starting with the knife hand circular block and leading into the side kicks, then the pressing blocks, and the turning stomping/back fist sections, always made this form a challenge, and fun to do. This is the only form we do in the TTA at 1st dan.

Po Eun: 36 moves by the Encyclopedia. This form has a very Tekki/Naifanchi approach, in that it stays along one line, going side to side, and uses a sitting/middle/horse stance for the most part. I do not do all the bouncing up and down when performing this form in my school; we stay as level as possible during the movements, and in the sitting stances, we stay level for each of the techniques. We see a U-shaped grasp, which we do as palms, a twin horizontal elbow thrust, a horizontal punch using both arms, X-stance low forearm front block, and a back elbow thrust. Lots of very compact combinations in this form, which really makes it move along pretty quick. In the TTA, this form is a 2nd degree recommended form.

Ge Baek: 44 movements. We see lots of footwork in this form, too, with both feet shifting around. In the TTA, we don't shift both feet quite as much as the ITFers do, though. We see the low twist kick, but only on one leg in this form, the right leg. We see a double arc hand block, the palm scooping block, the 9-shape block, and a back fist front strike that is augmented with a supporting arm at 90 degrees to the strike. We also see an upset one knuckle punch done with the right hand. In place of the jumping side kick in this form, we do a hopping side kick, and the arc hand blocks we do in slow motion. We also have some slight footwork variations. One day I will have to get videos of me doing the forms, to share with here and how we do them slightly differently. In the TTA, this is our 2nd dan form.

GTF Pattern Jee Goo:

This form has 30 moves, and you read about the philosophy behind the form here: http://taekwondo.wikia.com/wiki/Jee-Goo Thanks goes to truejim for that link! Jee Goo means "the globe," and the pattern is performed in a + on the ground, which harkens back to Chon Ji, which is the same pattern, +, and is "heaven and earth." A nice little twist, I think, and probably done that way on purpose by the forms creator, GM Park, Jung Tae. We don't see a lot of complicated techniques or footwork, but the form repeats itself and stays very balanced. We get front kicks, side kicks, round kicks, reverse hook kicks, and a kicking combination towards the end that is a high outward vertical checking kick followed by a side kick, done in consecutive kick fashion. Also notice the decrease in the use of sine wave in the GTF stylist. I checked some other videos of the form, as well, and there is some sine wave usage, but it is significantly diminished over what is seen in most ITF videos out there right now.

Kukki 1st dan Poomsae:

Original Koryo:

Koryo:

Original Koryo: I count 22 movements, in a very straight line form. But the combinations are quick and crisp, with lots of the foot shifting we see in many of the Palgwe forms. According to Richard Chun and Doug Cook in their book, Taekwondo Black Belt Poomsae, this form was created between 1965 and 1967 along with the original Yudanja set with the Palgwe forms of that time. This leads me to wonder what other Yudanja forms are out there that might parallel the Palgwe forms. Of note here, other than the footwork, we see a 4-knuckle strike to the throat, an X-block performed in a sitting stance, a knee-smash, and a combination of grabbing and pulling an arm into a back leg front kick, followed by a jumping front kick. At the end of the form, there are several movements going backwards, but in more of a shifting motion rather than an outright stepping motion, which I like better for self-defense purposes.

Koryo: I counted 48 movements here. I count lots of open hand moves, spear hands, knife hands, upset knife hand strikes, etc. The form also opens with early consecutive side kicks, and we get side kicks and front kicks in this form, too. There is also an interesting sequence with an elbow thrust, to a knife hand block, followed by a target punch, then pulling into a side kick. Lots of little things going on here. There is also downward tiger mouth thrusting strike, simulating striking into the knee cap of a captured kick (or so I've been told before). A nice form, with a nice balance of hand and foot techniques, and seems to flow well.

ATA 1st dan Form, Shim Jun:

81 moves. Long form. Edit: translates as "begin planting seeds for the future," and interpretation is "new role of loyalty through physical and mental training." We see in this first ATA black belt form the use of what is called single-hand technique, where the reaction arm is not used to pull back, but the hips are supposed to be relied upon for power. This demo doesn't show that well, but its supposed to be that way. We see a jumping hook kick in this form, as well as a jumping side kick. We also see a step-spin hook kick, and a triple consecutive kick, done with a slow side kick to low section, then a round kick middle, then a round kick high section (or middle). There is a low inner forearm block performed here, as well. We also see what the ATA calls "compound double blocks," where one hand is a fist, and the other a knife, like the square block in this form. We also see the double guarding block motion changed from the both hands reaching back method of chambering, to the crossed-arms chambering, which is more prevalent in Karate styles that I have seen.

Edit for ATA form information: New blocks listed are "9" block [moves 16, 33], square block with one hand open and one hand closed [34, 54], double blocks with one hand open and one hand closed [34,54, 55, 74], advanced double blocks (done with arms crossed chambers) 1, 17, 76, 79], and advanced double knife hand block [6, 22]. New kicks are foot stomp 8, 24], #1 jump hook kick [15, 32], step forward spin hook kick [47, 67], step forward #2 jump side kick [75]. Movement types are listed a tension movements (5 seconds long) [13, 30, 45, 65], slow movements (2 seconds long) [51, 71], circular movements [7, 23, 78, 81], and single arm blocks and strikes.

So there we go, our first mouthful of black belt forms in Taekwondo. Any and all feedback is appreciated!

Edited May 30, 2015 by bushido_man96

[IcemanSK]

That's a great version of "Old Koryo" done by the daughter of GM Shin Chul KANG (the man who introduced TKD to Iran). She is very talented. Old Koryo was rarely done for a very long time, but has made a comeback in the last 5-8 years. GM CHUN & Master Cook's book can take more than a little credit for that.

The version of "new" Koryo shown is wonderfully done. The tiger claw is referred to as a "knee break." The target of the technique is above the knee cap.

In my 30 years doing Koryo (the "new" one), there have been many changes (eg. I learned a "dynamic tension" ready stance, to the "breathe in, breathe out" way it's done today), it's still my favorite poomsae.

[DWx]

I always liked how the 3 forms learnt at each dan level in ITF all had a different flavour. At first dan you've got Ge Baek which is the "power" pattern, Kwang Ge which I think of as the "technical" pattern. And then Po Eun. (not sure yet what to call this ).

As a first dan I loved Ge Baek and hated Kwang Gae. At the time I thought blackbelts ought to be powerful and strong and Ge Baek fits this well. Now, a decade later, I much prefer Kwang Gae due to the level of control required. It's soft / slow until it needs to be, like the stamping backfists and front kick section at the end. The stepping and foot placement is really important too and it's that level of technicality which I have a greater appreciation for now.

[bushido_man96]

I always liked how the 3 forms learnt at each dan level in ITF all had a different flavour. At first dan you've got Ge Baek which is the "power" pattern, Kwang Ge which I think of as the "technical" pattern. And then Po Eun. (not sure yet what to call this ).

As a first dan I loved Ge Baek and hated Kwang Gae. At the time I thought blackbelts ought to be powerful and strong and Ge Baek fits this well. Now, a decade later, I much prefer Kwang Gae due to the level of control required. It's soft / slow until it needs to be, like the stamping backfists and front kick section at the end. The stepping and foot placement is really important too and it's that level of technicality which I have a greater appreciation for now.

I agree with you on so many levels here, Danielle! I have always loved doing Ge Baek, for the reasons you list; powerful and strong, and very direct. But, as a 1st dan, I loved doing Kwang Gae as well, for the reasons you mention, with technical aspects of the footwork (some of ours is different, but still evident), and the mix of the slow/fast, but I liken it more to being tension, then fast.

Kwang Gae kind of has sections that are long and slow, and then short and fast, and I really like the rhythm of it. With that said, Yoo Sin kind of has the same feel to it, but I just absolutely despise that form.

Now, I have a question for you Danielle, in regards to the three forms per rank at black belt....how do you break up the learning and practicing of each? Do you learn Kwang Gae first, and spend some months getting it down, before going on to Po Eun? Or do you get them all three force-fed at the beginning of your time in the rank, and then sort them out as you go? Is there a recommended teaching premise here, or does it vary from instructor to instructor in the ITF?

That's a great version of "Old Koryo" done by the daughter of GM Shin Chul KANG (the man who introduced TKD to Iran). She is very talented. Old Koryo was rarely done for a very long time, but has made a comeback in the last 5-8 years. GM CHUN & Master Cook's book can take more than a little credit for that.

I have that book, along with most of their other forms books. I really enjoyed the breakdown of each Koryo version, along with there discussion of the early Kwan history, and the Palgwe philosophy. A really good book.

The version of "new" Koryo shown is wonderfully done. The tiger claw is referred to as a "knee break." The target of the technique is above the knee cap.

In my 30 years doing Koryo (the "new" one), there have been many changes (eg. I learned a "dynamic tension" ready stance, to the "breathe in, breathe out" way it's done today), it's still my favorite poomsae.

Yes, very well done. I hope I can find the other forms done by that guy. His technique and power are awesome. Your explanation of the knee break was the way I had it explained to me when I first saw it. Is the target above the knee cap, or can it be into the knee cap from below, causing dislocation possibly?

In our next group of forms, the 2nd dan group, we get a bunch of forms, including the Ko Dang/Juche conundrum of the ITF (hopefully I can find both), along with the others, which should put us at 6 forms total for a 2nd dan! And if I keep training myself this way, the days I spend working on 2nd dan forms will be killers! That and Juche has a flying two direction kick that I will make look like absolute garbage when I try to do it....time to lose weight, and stretch more!

Note: I do have a video of me doing Ge Baek the way our association does it, and I've added it to the above thread of 1st dan forms if you guys are interested in checking it out.

[bushido_man96]

Ok, 2nd dan forms, which will be a gauntlet. I'm not sure my body can do all these crazy forms, but I will eventually be trying, so here goes nothing!

ITF 2nd dan Tuls:

Eui Am:

Choong Jang:

Juche:

Ko Dang:

Ok, let's start this party...

Eui Am: 45 moves. New techniques include a low knife hand inward block that starts the form (and an inward version, with the ridge hand), reverse outer forearm block, an X-fist downward block (which appears to be a kind of checking technique), reverse knife hand high block (lots of reverse blocking in general here), high reverse turning kick (knee stays locked), high crescent punch, knife hand wedging block, reverse knife hand circular block, downward block with palms, and includes backward double stepping footwork. We see lots of the previous basic blocks done in other forms done here, but with open hands, and on the reverse sides, which were typically done on the same side as the forward foot. The reverse high turning kicks seem especially challenging, as the kick stops but doesn't hook, making it a challenging technique to control. Lots of powerful checking and blocking hand techniques to explore applications from.

Choong Jang: 52 moves. We get palm scooping blocks, knee kicks, twin palm pressing blocks (which we do really low), a back hand downward strike (we just do a back hand strike), a back fist side front strike (we do horizontal elbow strikes here...), twin knife hand strikes, arc hand strikes, twin fore-knuckle crescent punch (we don't use the fore-knuckle), and of note is the round kick done from one knee, followed by the punch, and then up into elbow strikes and on from there. We also have backward step-slide-turning. This is my current form, and I like it so much better than doing Yoo Sin (my previous form). I'm still working through all the turns and movements, but its coming along nicely. This form has that powerful feeling I got from doing Ge Baek, so I like it quite a bit. This is the 4th degree form in my school.

Juche: 45 moves. There is much to be said about the conundrum between Juche and Ko Dang, but I'll leave that topic out, because it tends to fall along some political lines between Choi's time of being in South Korea, and then joining North Korea when he didn't get any support in South Korea. So, the form. This one will be nasty for me. New techniques include a downward back fist strike, one leg stance parallel block, inner forearm parallel blocks (wedging blocks), a hooking kick which looks like an outward crescent kick that stops abruptly at the apex, knife hand mid air strike (with a spin) and a flying consecutive punch, pick-shape kick which appears to be a straight leg axe kick, arc hand crescent strike, downward elbow thrust, twin inward knife hand strike, a downward punch, outer forearm downward block, and then the tricky kicking....dodging reverse turning kicks, and flying two-direction kicks. Footwork includes backward double-step-sliding.

Holy cow, how hard can this form get?! You get to do a slow side kick that then becomes a hooking kick that spins around slowly to hook an attacker behind you. You get hooking kick/consecutive side kick. This form repeats itself pretty well, so you get all these kicking techniques on each side, like the jumping/dodging turning kicks. There is a section in the middle of the form with retreating hand techniques, where there is blocking and then downward elbow thrusts, and blocking and downward punch, showing a section where the practitioner is really subduing and enemy and finishing him off. Then there is the two-direction kick, and the jumping consecutive punches. In my eyes, a really tough form, and things aren't going to get easier from here for 2nd dans.

Ko Dang: 39 moves in this form, so a little break on the length. The form starts out interestingly in that it seems to be retreating for the first several move sets, before coming forward with palm pressing blocks. The side kicks in the form are actually back kicks, as they set up a bit differently than the side kicks usually do. The back kick hits its target, and then the student is dealing with the threats in front of him again. We also see the outward hooking/crescent stopping kick. There is not a lot of turning in this form, really, and the few turns usually have one or two techniques before the student is facing forward again. A very interesting form, and I like the setup here. Not nearly as daunting as Juche, but still a challenging form.

GTF 2nd dan hyung, Jook Am:

Holy techniques, Batman, this form has 95 moves in it! And lots of slow kicking, repeat kicking, and jump kicking. Lots of kicking going on here. Slow back kicks followed by consecutive fast high back kicks, slow side kick/consecutive fast side kicks, reverse hooking kicks followed by pick shape kicks. Slow front kick, followed by consecutive fast front kick (those are tough on the quads!). High inner crescent kick followed by jumping 360 degree inner crescent kick. Outward vertical checking kick consecutive side kick. Not to be lost in the kicking are some solid hand combinations, like the low X-block to high X-block and then pulling hand with punch, a nice joint lock combination. Reverse hook kick consecutive round kick, and jumping spin back kicks, and jumping 360 degree spin back kicks. Towards the end of the form, when you are starting to tank out, there are some triple consecutive kicking, done slow, then fast, with round kicks and side kicks. Our friend the two-direction jump kick makes an appearance, as do jump spinning hook kicks, dodging reverse turning kicks, and if all the jumping kicks aren't enough, the jumping spinning knife hands, and the jumping consecutive punching. Then it finishes with consecutive kicking in 3 different directions.

I'm tired just watching that form. I'm sure it will be fun to perform.

WTF/Kukki 2nd dan Poomsae Keumgang:

27 moves. This forms emphasizes the hinge block, that you see with the hand over the hip in what looks like the angle punch position, and then a spinning version of the same block, as well as the "diamond" block its named for, done in slow motion in a one-leg stance. We see forward palm strikes and retreating inward knife hand middle blocks, and the mountain block with stomps. Interestingly, no kicks in the form aside from stomp kicks, and its fairly short.

ATA 2nd dan form, Jung Yul:

82 moves, this form translates as "with your noble character, you will develop a new permanence in your life." This was the last form I did as an ATA student, and I found it particularly challenging. Shim Jun was a bit more direct, I felt, and although it was tough, it seemed less intricate. Jung Yul is tougher, with more slow spots in it, and the challenge of doing 3 consecutive round kicks in three different directions challenges your balance and leg strength. There is also the consecutive reverse hook kick/round kick, and a section with a three kick combination of jump 360 inner crescent kick (which we always called a "butterfly" kick) followed by reverse side kick then back leg side kick. With the hand techniques, we see an open hand block similar to the "diamond" block of Keumgang, along with a slow version of the high nine block, done in a rear stance. There are also more techniques done in combination from cross-legged stances, and we see more of the single hand technique. We have some hand technique combinations done without reaction force, and with the same hand, seen with the circular high block from back stance, shift to rear stance and downward palm block, then shift to middle stance and a long lunge punch, all with the same hand and using the stance shifting to gain power. We see a change here in how double blocks are performed, as well. Instead of the cross-armed chamber we saw in Shim Jun, we do circular blocking where the arms make a wide circle back, and then are brought abruptly forward or downward in a straight line to the target area. We see this circular motion in twin downward knife hand strikes, and a downward knife hand strike. Our good friend, the jumping spinning knife hand strike, ends the form.

Edit for Jung Yul: New kicks: #2 outer axe kick [12, 57], jump reverse inner crescent kick (butterfly kick) [43]. New blocks: circular hooking block [9, 10, 54, 55], side high knife hand/low open hand block [17, 62], reinforced inner forearm block [18, 63] (other hand on outer edge of blocking fist), downward palm block [26, 71], inward palm block [28, 73], high 9-block [40, 42], circular single outer knife hand block [14, 59]. New strikes: horizontal elbow strike, vertical back elbow [1, 3], horizontal hammer fist strike [20, 65], downward elbow strike [7, 52], arc hand strike [15, 60], downward knife hand strike (single, double, circular) [31, 39, 41, 46, 76], twin punch [5, 50]. New stances: X-stance [6-8, 18-20, 31, 51-53, 63-65, 76], one-leg stance [15-17, 60-62]. Type of movements are tension movements, slow movements, circular movements, and single-arm blocks and strikes.

Now, these are all very brief discussions of each of these forms, and we can delve much deeper in comparisons, as much as you all would like to! Just point out a spot or a form, and let's compare and contrast away! Also, the caveat is that I have experience in only some of these forms, so if those of you with experience in these other forms see where I am off on my descriptions or observations, please, please, PLEASE chime in and let's discuss them!

Like I said at the beginning, 2nd dan forms is a gauntlet, and I will put myself through it, eventually.

Edited May 31, 2015 by bushido_man96

[hammer]

Juche: 45 moves. There is much to be said about the conundrum between Juche and Ko Dang, but I'll leave that topic out, because it tends to fall along some political lines between Choi's time of being in South Korea, and then joining North Korea when he didn't get any support in South Korea. So, the form. This one will be nasty for me. New techniques include a downward back fist strike, one leg stance parallel block, inner forearm parallel blocks (wedging blocks), a hooking kick which looks like an outward crescent kick that stops abruptly at the apex, knife hand mid air strike (with a spin) and a flying consecutive punch, pick-shape kick which appears to be a straight leg axe kick, arc hand crescent strike, downward elbow thrust, twin inward knife hand strike, a downward punch, outer forearm downward block, and then the tricky kicking....dodging reverse turning kicks, and flying two-direction kicks. Footwork includes backward double-step-sliding.

Holy cow, how hard can this form get?! You get to do a slow side kick that then becomes a hooking kick that spins around slowly to hook an attacker behind you. You get hooking kick/consecutive side kick. This form repeats itself pretty well, so you get all these kicking techniques on each side, like the jumping/dodging turning kicks. There is a section in the middle of the form with retreating hand techniques, where there is blocking and then downward elbow thrusts, and blocking and downward punch, showing a section where the practitioner is really subduing and enemy and finishing him off. Then there is the two-direction kick, and the jumping consecutive punches. In my eyes, a really tough form, and things aren't going to get easier from here for 2nd dans.

When I did TKD this was the highest form...once 2nd Dan we did Gae Bek, Choong Jang, and Se Jong.

I'd put it at or near the top for difficulty in the ITF forms set.

[IcemanSK]

Keumgang is a deceptively difficult poomsae. BALANCE is challenge of this poomsae. In competition, the one-legged Hakdari seogi (Crane Stance) are held on one leg for 5-6 seconds. When GM PARK Hae Man (one of the designers of the Tae Guek, Pal Gwe & Yudanja poomsae) teaches it, he says, "from the beginning to the end of the technique, you should balance for 10 seconds. Twelve is better!" So, from the point one begins to raise their foot off the ground, until the block is finished should be 12 seconds! A real challenge.

When I took the Kukkiwon Foreign Instructors Course, the instructors of the Course emphasized the importance of the BB student with this form by saying, "One can tell a BB students entire TKD ability by seeing the way they perform Keumgang & Tae Guek Yuk Jang (6)." In the six years since I took the Course, I've found this to be more true every day. I work on both especially hard.

[IcemanSK]

Here are some applications of techniques found in Kukki-TKD poomsae (both Tae Geuk & Yudanja).