TKD Forms; a running comparison

[IcemanSK]

I like the ATA's idea with jumping and flexibility-necessary kicks at Brown belt level. It makes sense to require those at high gup-level rank. In Kukki-TKD poomsae, there's a spinning crescent kick to a target in Cheonkwon (7th Dan poomsae), and two jump side kicks in IL Yeo (9th Dan poomsae). It seems to me, that one should need to do those kicks at lower, (younger) more flexible ranks, shall we say.

In Tae guek Pal Jang, the jump front kick in technique #3 is actually two different kicks.

It's very subtle, and most Kukki-TKD folks miss it, but the right foot movement is also a kick as well at the more obvious left foot kick. When done as shown here, it's not an easy thing to accomplish. It's much easier to see it only as a left foot jump front kick.

[truejim]

In Tae guek Pal Jang, the jump front kick in technique #3 is actually two different kicks.

It's very subtle, and most Kukki-TKD folks miss it, but the right foot movement is also a kick as well at the more obvious left foot kick. When done as shown here, it's not an easy thing to accomplish. It's much easier to see it only as a left foot jump front kick.

Yah, most of the younger kids in the school I attend just turn that first double-kick into a single Jump Front Kick with the left foot, lifting the knee of the right leg first to get into the jump. They're supposed to kick with that right leg too, but they don't.

Now that you mention it, I'm actually a little confused about the Taegeuk Pal Jang kicks. I've read - and been told - that the double-kick at the beginning is actually two JUMP front kicks, while the double-kick at the end is a regular Front Kick followed by a jump Front Kick.

Here's my confusion: I don't see how the double-kick at the beginning can be a two JUMP front kicks. If you push-off with the left leg to jump kick with the right leg, then there's no leg still on the ground to push-off with when it comes to the second kick...so how can that be a jump kick?

One might say that you kick twice while in the air from a single jump, but I've read that the second kick is supposed to be higher than the first, and I don't see how that could be, since by that time you're already falling after the jump.

I usually turn the first kick into a regular kick, jumping on the second kick (and I've never been called out for it) but I don't think that's right.

[bushido_man96]

I like the ATA's idea with jumping and flexibility-necessary kicks at Brown belt level. It makes sense to require those at high gup-level rank. In Kukki-TKD poomsae, there's a spinning crescent kick to a target in Cheonkwon (7th Dan poomsae), and two jump side kicks in IL Yeo (9th Dan poomsae). It seems to me, that one should need to do those kicks at lower, (younger) more flexible ranks, shall we say.

I agree with you, and that was GM Lee's reason for designing the forms the way that he did for the ATA. His idea was that if TKD was to be known for its kicking techniques, then why don't the forms focus more and challenge more with kicking techniques? Later on in this thread, I'll lay out how each rank of the ATA adds more challenging techniques that are basic requirements in order to test. But I agree, this is what the ATA forms do well. Keep in mind, though, that most of the kicking techniques done in the ATA forms are not required to be high section. The recommended targeting for them is middle or high section. The jumping crescent kicks in brown belt form, though, are supposed to be high section, but front/crescent kicks are usually easier for people to get high section than other kicks.

In Tae guek Pal Jang, the jump front kick in technique #3 is actually two different kicks.

It's very subtle, and most Kukki-TKD folks miss it, but the right foot movement is also a kick as well at the more obvious left foot kick. When done as shown here, it's not an easy thing to accomplish. It's much easier to see it only as a left foot jump front kick.

I agree, very subtle, and that was how I thought it was supposed to be done, but got confused when I saw how the second kick like his was done in the form. I used to be able to do that more easily, but gravity is working against me more lately....

Now that you mention it, I'm actually a little confused about the Taegeuk Pal Jang kicks. I've read - and been told - that the double-kick at the beginning is actually two JUMP front kicks, while the double-kick at the end is a regular Front Kick followed by a jump Front Kick.

This helps clarify that for me, thank you.

Here's my confusion: I don't see how the double-kick at the beginning can be a two JUMP front kicks. If you push-off with the left leg to jump kick with the right leg, then there's no leg still on the ground to push-off with when it comes to the second kick...so how can that be a jump kick?

One might say that you kick twice while in the air from a single jump, but I've read that the second kick is supposed to be higher than the first, and I don't see how that could be, since by that time you're already falling after the jump.

I see your conundrum here, but it is possible. The key is to use that right leg front kick chamber motion to really burst off the ground, and then if you pull you knee up tight like a front kick chamber, its just a matter of flicking that kick out and back fast. While you are still on the rise, the second kick follows, hopefully higher than the first one, because you flicked it out there earlier at the beginning of the jump. I hope that helps out. Really make that first kick fast to make it work.

With the shape I'm in now, I might have to do them both like the second one just so I don't make myself look bad...

[bushido_man96]

Ok, ready for 1st gup material, and at this stage in the game, I'm going to have to do some clean-up to get things kind of consistent in regard to rank and what not. So please, bear with me here.

We are fresh out of colored belt Kukki patterns, so I'll pick them up once we get to black belt rank proper. For now, two colored belt forms.

ATA red belt form, Choong Jung 2:

46 moves. New blocks are double inner forearm block, knife hand high X-block. New strikes are long upset ridge hand strike, palm heel strike, and reverse upset punch. Kicking includes a reverse hook kick, a #3 jump round kick, and a repeat round kick/side kick combination.

This form as a lot of open and techniques and combinations in it, with palm heel strikes and ridge hand strikes, and the open and knife hand square blocks. The kicking techniques are particularly challenging. The round/side kick really challenges balance, and the reverse hook kick requires power yet control necessary to keep from over rotating before returning the kick to the ground. This form is a great challenge to the ATA student approaching the black belt test.

TTA middle brown belt form, Hwa Rang hyung:

29 movements by the book, 30-31 techniques in total. New hand techniques include the palm heel strike (we perform this movement in slow motion), reverse upset punch, downward knife hand strike in circular motion, and twin elbow strikes to the rear. We have a high/low scissors type block, and a technique where the student reaches out and grabs his punching and before pulling in and delivering a side kick with the front leg. We also get 2 round kicks in combination in this form. There is a section of 3 reverse punches done in back stance, but we do these punching forward with hip rotation, not to the 45.

This form starts out very compact in the beginning, and I get lots of power in the opening sequence. I like the fact that there are more kicks in this form, too. There are lots of little footwork nuances that are not as apparent in this form until you begin to do it. I think this form and Choong Moo really require attention to the footwork to be successful in performing them.

[IcemanSK]

I do like Hwa Rang. It's a fun form. It's a difficult form to perform well.

[bushido_man96]

I agree. What I notice the most when teaching Hwa Rang and Choong Moo is that the students don't pay enough attention to the intricacies of the footwork in these forms. Good footwork will put their bodies in the right positions to perform the techniques with good power. I usually see the footwork get rushed too much, and then power fades, and technique fades.

[bushido_man96]

Alrighty, somewhere along the way here, I've run out of all my other forms in keeping up with the belt ranks I currently do. And not knowing how the belt ranks really line up in the WTF, I'm sure I got off there, too. So for now, at the TTA hi brown belt level, we do the form Choong Moo hyung.

Choong Moo hyung:

32 moves, with quite a few kicks. We see the bending ready stance prior to the first side kick, which is to the rear, and we also see the jumping side kick here done in a kind of leg bicycling motion. We don't do the kick that way; we take two steps, then come off with a back leg flying side kick, which is simpler than the kick he does here. Then you get a back leg round kick/spin side kick combination, a round kick to the 45 degree flank, and a combination of two back leg side kicks towards the end of the form. As for hand techniques, there are lots of open hand techniques, with the knife hand square block, a knife hand high block/upset knife hand strike move, and a horizontal spear hand strike. We also get the knife hand checking blocks, which are an X-block that checks a technique, but could also be used as a catch. We have an inner forearm block that comes to the inside, which is seen common in the early WTF/Kukki forms, but appears for the first time in the ITF forms. There is also the tricky jump 360 degree spin into the knife hand guarding blocks, which is a challenge, because you are supposed to jump from and land in the same spot.

Overall, a very challenging form, but one I like. Footwork tends to be key for a good performance.

[truejim]

Alrighty, somewhere along the way here, I've run out of all my other forms in keeping up with the belt ranks I currently do. And not knowing how the belt ranks really line up in the WTF, I'm sure I got off there, too.

I think you've done as good a job as can be done. I believe:

- ITF Chang Hon has 9 forms for the color belts (so does ATA).

- Kukkiwon/WTF has 8 (so does Jhoon Rhee).

- The ITF-offshoot GTF has 12 color belt forms

So you're bound to have one Chang Hon form left-over.

It'll get worse when you try to line-up the black belt forms:

- ITF Chang Hon has 15 black belt forms

- Kukkiwon/WTF has only 9 black belt forms

- ATA has 8 black belt forms

- GTF has 18 black belt forms

http://taekwondo.wikia.com/wiki/Taekwondo_Forms

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for the support here, truejim! And the lists on the GTF forms. I think they use most of the ITF material, but have some a few of their own sprinkled in. Perhaps I'll go back and sprinkle in a few of those forms for comparison's sake.

Now, as I get into the black belt forms, things are going to get a bit strange from my organization. My plan here is to follow the curriculums of the major associations here, the ITF, the ATA, and the Kukki/WTF, and how they present the forms for their black belts. Then I will throw in what forms my association does at those ranks. It should be fun from here!

In the ATA and the TTA, there is a "recommended" black belt rank. In the ATA, its a red/black belt, with the top half of the belt black, and the bottom half red. I was always told to wear the belt with the black on top, because it symbolized you were still a red belt working your way "up" to black belt. In the TTA, we have what the call a "skunk belt," which is a black belt with a white stripe through the center of it.

In both associations, there is no new form for this rank. They repeat performing the last form they did, Choong Jung 2 and Choong Moo.

Choong Jung 2:

Choong Moo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4ecoWIbOXY

[sensei8]

7 pages of gold; awesome comparisons!! I've enjoyed them all!! Thanks, Brian!! Great conversations, all!!