TKD Forms; a running comparison

[DWx]

In my experience with folks who do Chang Hon tul (ITF-style) there's a large variety of thoughts and feelings toward sine wave. There are a lot of folks who's lineage never kept up with the "latest" updates on these forms. For these folks, seeing sine wave for the first time seemed odd, at best, and silly, at worst. Some folks who were closely connected to the ITF (and General Choi, particularly) embraced sine wave more easily, because they took the time to understand it more fully.

You are right in that it has changed a lot over the years. But a lot of this is due to context I think. How do you make Taekwon-Do look different from and be "better" than Karate (and Kukkiwon TKD)? Introduce this movement called sine wave. It seems many people went the route of bigger being better without fully understanding why. Now it's becoming more and more refined and we are told to tone down the movement and pull it back to something more useful rather than something that is just different.

I often wonder if sine wave isn't (in some places) taken to an extreme that it was never meant to go. Something meant to be a way to demonstrate how power is generated taken to a sometimes comical extreme. I've seen (again, in some places) people trying to put sine wave in where it seems odd, awkward and out of place. Almost as if sine wave itself is the technique, instead of the kick, punch or block.

Sure I'd agree with that. In the past even our association has been guilty of thinking bigger=better. It's a problem really and I think it stems from a couple of sources: a) masters teaching seminars and exaggerating movements for teaching points then everyone goes away thinking they must do it like this all the time and b) competitors emphasising it for aesthetics then everybody else trying to emulate them. Nowadays though there is definitely a movement towards reining the sine wave in. Competitors for example are penalised if they go overboard with it.

Best way I heard it described was as "sighing with your whole body". In truth the "down" phase of sine wave is limited in what it adds to the technique and is not about dipping your knee to the floor, it is more about forcing you to relax and unlock your legs and hip. That is all. (Only time it might be a bigger movement is where you specifically need to drop lower, e. g. A circular block where you scope under the opponents leg). The "up" phase of sine wave then simply comes from bringing the feet under the body when stepping, or in the case of movements on the spot, drawing back the hip and coming slightly onto the ball of the back foot in order to drive the movement from the leg. It shouldn't be a big thing at all as anything more than this is unstable and superfluous movement. This is more like how I try to move:

[DWx]

In my experience with folks who do Chang Hon tul (ITF-style) there's a large variety of thoughts and feelings toward sine wave. There are a lot of folks who's lineage never kept up with the "latest" updates on these forms. For these folks, seeing sine wave for the first time seemed odd, at best, and silly, at worst. Some folks who were closely connected to the ITF (and General Choi, particularly) embraced sine wave more easily, because they took the time to understand it more fully.

You are right in that it has changed a lot over the years. But a lot of this is due to context I think. How do you make Taekwon-Do look different from and be "better" than Karate (and Kukkiwon TKD)? Introduce this movement called sine wave. It seems many people went the route of bigger being better without fully understanding why. Now it's becoming more and more refined and we are told to tone down the movement and pull it back to something more useful rather than something that is just different.

I often wonder if sine wave isn't (in some places) taken to an extreme that it was never meant to go. Something meant to be a way to demonstrate how power is generated taken to a sometimes comical extreme. I've seen (again, in some places) people trying to put sine wave in where it seems odd, awkward and out of place. Almost as if sine wave itself is the technique, instead of the kick, punch or block.

This is a very good point, and at times when I watch ITF forms, I get that feeling, as well.

Here's another version of Do San that I have saved to my playlists:

This guy has pretty good power, but lots more sine wave, especially in the punches. In my opinion, they take way to long to set up, and the sine wave, the way it is done here, presents a huge telegraph. The sine wave also stymies combinations in the forms. When I do this form, at the beginning, its outside block, then a slight pull-back of the hip, and then punch. Then a quick adjustment step to the other side, we call it stepping "one line to two lines," and then boom, we're off. Also, the two punches after the wedging blocks and front kick are a quick combination, no pause to set up the sine wave.

Combinations as such are a bit different when done with sine wave in ITF patterns. The pacing of the form is very rigidly defined so you aren't supposed to chain any moves together which aren't specified. Of course this doesn't limit what you do outside of the form in drill or line work but within it must be practiced at this tempo. The two punches after the wedging block are meant to be done in "fast motion" in ITF where I guess you could say you do 1.5x sine wave for the 2 techniques. As in the video, instead of down-up-down (punch) then down-up-down (punch), if that makes sense, you skip the first half of the second "sine wave" action. So technically speaking you don't do the relax downward phase because you don't have time and you are meant to just go straight into pulling back and firing off the second punch. We also have continuous motion and connecting motion but it's a little difficult to describe without demonstration... As is pretty much all of sine wave Got to visit the UK Brian and I can show you how we teach it in person

[bushido_man96]

Combinations as such are a bit different when done with sine wave in ITF patterns. The pacing of the form is very rigidly defined so you aren't supposed to chain any moves together which aren't specified. Of course this doesn't limit what you do outside of the form in drill or line work but within it must be practiced at this tempo. The two punches after the wedging block are meant to be done in "fast motion" in ITF where I guess you could say you do 1.5x sine wave for the 2 techniques. As in the video, instead of down-up-down (punch) then down-up-down (punch), if that makes sense, you skip the first half of the second "sine wave" action. So technically speaking you don't do the relax downward phase because you don't have time and you are meant to just go straight into pulling back and firing off the second punch. We also have continuous motion and connecting motion but it's a little difficult to describe without demonstration... As is pretty much all of sine wave Got to visit the UK Brian and I can show you how we teach it in person

If I ever do, we will come look you up, for sure! You could probably help me out a lot with sparring...its my weak spot, for sure.

You mention the way the pacing is laid out for the tempo of the forms. I guess in our association we are allowed a bit more personal interpretation. But, we don't have the sine wave motion to add in, so it changes the dynamic of what we can do with the moves, as well.

This is more like how I try to move:

His sine wave isn't nearly as pronounced. I really liked watching his form a lot better than the others I find.

[bushido_man96]

Tae Geuk Sa Jang (#4) is a big change from the familiar motions of TG 1-3. While pattern of the form itself is familiar to the student, the techniques take on a much different tone and complexity.

I noticed that, too. I really liked it, to be honest, except for the part through the middle where he went to the walking stances and the inside blocks. The turns looked unnatural to me.

If I've not said this before, let me say it now!! I've only a 6th Gup in TKD under GM Young Ik Suh, and this topic/thread is dynamite through and through! Gives many TKD practitioners a lot to think about from each form you cover!

Thanks, Bob! I'm glad you are enjoying the exchange. I invite all the Karatekas, or other practitioners, to bring in some commentary!

[sensei8]

Great discussions here!!

[bushido_man96]

Ok, great discussion so far, everyone. Thank you for chiming in here! Lets do some 5th gup stuff now.

Songham 5, ATA green belt form:

34 moves. Again, the familiar rectangle pattern along the floor. We start to see more open hand variations of many basic closed hand blocks, like the knife hand low block and high block. The reverse ridge hand strike is introduced. We also see the horizontal spear hand strike, and double blocks done in a repeated sequence, twin low block followed by twin inner forearm blocks. We also see more front leg kicking in this form, with a front kick and a round kick, along with some footwork adjustments. Front, round, and side kicks make an appearance in this form, including a step reverse side kick.

You might have also noticed that with the ATA forms, the way the start in the joon be position, and the direction they go to begin, changes with each form. White belt went to ready position with the left foot, and then started off with the left foot, into front stance and left high block. Orange joon be's to the right, yellow to the left. Camo belt introduced a slight change to the joon be position, with the hands at the belt knot (more commonly used in Karate and older TKD form systems), so goes left again. Songham 5 steps into ready position with the right foot, and the first move is to the right, into a twin outer forearm block in a right front stance. So it traces a different quadrant of the Songham Star than camo belt did.

TTA high green belt form, Won Hyo (probably a rank lower for you, Danielle):

I'd call this 26 moves, but we count them a bit differently, as we don't hold in the kicking ready stance like he does with the guarding blocks. We go right into the kick. But more or less, this form is like we do it. We do the upset knife hand strikes to the front (not the angle), and we chamber the double blocks prior to that at the hip, but I prefer the cross-hand chamber delivery. We get two side kicks and two front kicks in this form, and we also get the scooping inner forearm blocks (we don't dip our knees down to execute these). The initial combination is a favorite of mine, compact and powerful. The upset knives are also new techniques.

Palgwe 5:

I count 37 moves here.

We see a new block here, the scissors block. Lots of stepping back and then forth between blocking and striking movements, which would tend to simulate some evasion with blocking, then attacking. We see the double inner forearm block added, and the palm block. Also of note is the "bending ready stance" that the practitioner sets in prior to executing a side kick, and the back fist or hammer fist strike that accompanies the execution of the kick. We side kick like this, but we don't refer to the action of the hand as a strike, but just as a link that goes out with the leg. He takes a very slow, deliberate approach to getting into this position, before really exploding into the kick. After the kick, we see the rechamber and elbow strike with the landing, which would coincide with similar technique in Yul Gok, which is probably the form Danielle would be doing at this rank, but comes at my next rank.

I have to say that the more I watch the Palgwe set, the more I like the forms.

Taeguek 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dncY-ALUYeg

I count 32 moves here.

We see here the addition of the downward circling hammer strike, which I see later on in my system, in Hwa Rang and in black belt form Kwang Gae. It seems to me that this technique is always accompanied by the front leg stepping back towards the rear leg, which makes me think that I application is also heavily involves the withdrawing hand seizing the attacker, like with the upset knife hands in Won Hyo. We also see the forward back fist strike (I think, or is it an inside forearm block? WTFers will have to help me out here), and an elbow strike (coincidence...I think NOT!). Also making its appearance is the side kick/land and elbow strike combination, but without the "tracing hand" following out the side kick. Which would take some getting used to for me, as I am so used to following the kick with the hand now, and then leaving that arm out and hand extended to elbow strike into. He finishes with the back fist into X-stance, which I refer to as a power back fist, that is seen in Yul Gok, which should coincide with these forms in other systems.

Did I mention how much fun I'm having with this?

[IcemanSK]

In Tae Geuk #5 (Oh Jang) the techniques (in moves 6-8 ) are a backfist to the filtrum (between the upper lip & nose) and then inside block. One possible application of this I've seen lately is using the backfist hand to trap the opponent's punch, then the inside block as a fulcrum against the attacker's elbow.

The technique in move #2 (downward hammerfist) is also found in a later Pal Gwe poomsae. The designers were quite fond of that technique, apparently.

The version of Tae Geuk #5 done here does not include the extended arm with the side kick. See this version (the current official Kukkiwon version) of the form. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knQZKAlLLI0&index=20&list=PLEB89C0A9F74576F9

I can tell you're having fun with this. I don't think you're alone.

[bushido_man96]

In Tae Geuk #5 (Oh Jang) the techniques (in moves 6-8 ) are a backfist to the filtrum (between the upper lip & nose) and then inside block. One possible application of this I've seen lately is using the backfist hand to trap the opponent's punch, then the inside block as a fulcrum against the attacker's elbow.

That is helpful, thank you. In those sequences that repeat, is the back fist always the first (in this form?)? Also, when the practitioner turns around and is heading back towards the start, are those back fist strikes, or inside blocks?

The version of Tae Geuk #5 done here does not include the extended arm with the side kick. See this version (the current official Kukkiwon version) of the form. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knQZKAlLLI0&index=20&list=PLEB89C0A9F74576F9

So, the "official" version is to throw the "tracing" hand out with the side kick. Does the WTF/Kukkiwon label it as a strike, or just an assisting hand?

I can tell you're having fun with this. I don't think you're alone.

I hope you are enjoying this as well! Do you perform the Palgwe set, as well, Iceman?

A while back, there was a book put out on some ideas for self-defense applications of the Taeguk forms. I hope someone would come along and do so with the Palgwe forms. I get the feeling, though, that the Palgwe set may go away sooner rather than later.

[IcemanSK]

In Tae Geuk #5 (Oh Jang) the techniques (in moves 6-8 ) are a backfist to the filtrum (between the upper lip & nose) and then inside block. One possible application of this I've seen lately is using the backfist hand to trap the opponent's punch, then the inside block as a fulcrum against the attacker's elbow.

That is helpful, thank you. In those sequences that repeat, is the back fist always the first (in this form?)? Also, when the practitioner turns around and is heading back towards the start, are those back fist strikes, or inside blocks?

The sequence goes Technique #5 Two inside blocks. #6 Front kick, back fist/inside block. #7 Front kick, backfist inside block. #8 Backfist. The later techniques (at #13-14) are inside blocks.

The version of Tae Geuk #5 done here does not include the extended arm with the side kick. See this version (the current official Kukkiwon version) of the form. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knQZKAlLLI0&index=20&list=PLEB89C0A9F74576F9

So, the "official" version is to throw the "tracing" hand out with the side kick. Does the WTF/Kukkiwon label it as a strike, or just an assisting hand?

The technique with the side kick is a strike, technically, but more for balance.

I can tell you're having fun with this. I don't think you're alone.

I hope you are enjoying this as well! Do you perform the Palgwe set, as well, Iceman?

Back when I started TKD in 1982, my master taught us Tae Geuk 1-8 and Pal Gwe 6, 7, & 8. So, I have experience with a few, but not all of them.

 

A while back, there was a book put out on some ideas for self-defense applications of the Taeguk forms. I hope someone would come along and do so with the Palgwe forms. I get the feeling, though, that the Palgwe set may go away sooner rather than later.

One of the reasons they are going away is that they are no longer "official" Kukkiwon Poomsae any longer. Even GM PARK Hae Man (one of the designers of both poomsae sets) tells his students to only focus on the Tae Geuk & the yudanja poomsae.

 

I think the book you're referring to is "The Tae Geuk Cipher" by S. J. O'Neil I have no real issue with what he does in the book, but I don't think the photos are clear enough to really learn much from. My $.02.

 

[DWx]

The version of Tae Geuk #5 done here does not include the extended arm with the side kick. See this version (the current official Kukkiwon version) of the form. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knQZKAlLLI0&index=20&list=PLEB89C0A9F74576F9

So, the "official" version is to throw the "tracing" hand out with the side kick. Does the WTF/Kukkiwon label it as a strike, or just an assisting hand?

Application I was taught was that the arm goes out with the leg in case the opponent moves in to jam the leg. The fist should hopefully still connect and even if it doesn't it is extended so you can grab or whatever. Though this makes more sense when the arm punches rather than side strikes. In ITF holding the arms in or doing something else with them doesn't really happen until 2nd dan.

TTA high green belt form, Won Hyo (probably a rank lower for you, Danielle):

I'd call this 26 moves, but we count them a bit differently, as we don't hold in the kicking ready stance like he does with the guarding blocks. We go right into the kick. But more or less, this form is like we do it. We do the upset knife hand strikes to the front (not the angle), and we chamber the double blocks prior to that at the hip, but I prefer the cross-hand chamber delivery. We get two side kicks and two front kicks in this form, and we also get the scooping inner forearm blocks (we don't dip our knees down to execute these). The initial combination is a favorite of mine, compact and powerful. The upset knives are also new techniques.

Can you expand on the bold Brian? (In that video would you be aiming them towards the camera rather than on the 45?).

The logic behind the 45 angle in our school would be that without changing the stance, the 45 location for the strike would be the only possible place to do it.

First the hand placement must finish in line with the person's B or chest line (where the badges are). If it is across towards the centre line or further, this creates tension in the shoulder and also restricts you because your arm is across your body. We would also say the arm cannot finish on the outside of the shoulders as it is too far away from your centre of gravity and there is no bodyweight behind the arm to reinforce it (outward moving strikes are different).

In an L-stance (or back stance), the hips naturally sit on a 45 or half facing position, to turn them to one side or the other would force tension and wouldn't be natural or relaxed. The hips then dictate where the torso points and the hand placement is bound by that.

So with the hand position fixed, add in the stance too and on the 45 degree is the only place hand can logically finish for us.