TKD Forms; a running comparison

[bushido_man96]

I am familiar with two different form sets of TKD; the ATA, where I attained a 2nd degree rank, and my current TTA, which uses the Chang On system of forms, or part of it, anyways. But I have had just a dabbling of experience with the WTF set of forms, and my dad years ago did TKD with the old Pal Gwe forms. So what I thought I would do was throw some links in here of the different forms sets, by the rank I know them as, and do a bit of comparing and see if we can generate discussion.

FYI, for a comparison of taekwondo forms, see also http://taekwondo.wikia.com/wiki/Taekwondo_Forms

Thank you for the link. Its quite helpful!

[DWx]

6th gup/grade forms....

ATA Songham 4, camouflage belt (yes, camo belt) form:

We see 31 moves, along the rectangle diagram on the floor. For those not familiar with ATA forms and philosophy, all the forms fall somewhere along the diagram of the Songham Star: http://taekwondo.wikia.com/wiki/File:Songahm-Star.jpg

Being the fourth colored belt form in the ATA, you can start to see an increase in the number of kicks and kicking combinations in the forms. A reverse side kick is added, and can be seen as part of a combination, along with a second kick combination, utilizing a jump front kick, and followed by a front kick. You can also see another double block with both inner forearms, and sparring stance is also introduced.

Maybe it's because the form set I learnt, the Chang Hon (ITF) system is fairly conservative with the kicks until 2nd kup and beyond, but the ATA forms seem crazy difficult to me for a low colour belt student to do. You compare it to the 6th kup form Won Hyo from the ITF system which seems much easier on the kicking front:

For example, the jump front kick moves at 0.30 and 0.49 in Songham 4, although we might learn it separately from our forms if we choose, an equivalent movement doesn't appear in the ITF form set until Ul-Gi, a 4th dan pattern.

TTA Do San hyung, low green belt form:

This video is more like the way we do them in our school, with some differences in hand position for chambering and what-not. 24 moves, with some of the form veering off on angles before coming back in line. It starts with a very strong block/strike sequence that we see switch to the other side, before moving into a spear hand strike with the off hand reinforcing underneath the elbow. Following that, we have the strange spinning into the back fist technique. So we see some advancing footwork that requires the student to pay attention to detail when performing this section of the form. We see the wedging blocks, followed by a front kick and finishing with strong punching combinations, and one can see the applications with this segment pretty easily, I think. I really enjoy doing this form, because I feel that the movements are kept pretty short and compact, and I feel I generate a lot of power in this form. But still, its the fourth form in our curriculum, with only two kicking techniques in a style renowned for its kicking.

So this is obviously the same form as Do San performed at 7th kup in ITF. In his performance, the moves which stood out to me were the wedging blocks. Application-wise I have been taught this is to wedge between an attackers arms if they were to attack with a grabbing type motion i.e. grabbing your shoulders or head with both hands. His movement would not make sense for this application as his arms come across the body rather than upwards (

). Our movement is more like up and out like

.

Though I found this to be an interesting take on the movement:

FWIW the second half of Do San is very similar to the start of

.

Palgwe 4:

26 moves. We see at the beginning a very similar sequence to the beginning of Won Hyo hyung, which will be next up in our review here. It also shares similarities with a Karate kata, but I don't know the name. I'm sure one of our Karate guys can help me out here, though, and we can throw up a link to compare them, as well. Following that segment, we see a similar segment to that in Do San with the spear hand strike, followed by a turn and a hammer fist strike. In TKD fashion, though, a front kick is added into the beginning of the segment. The form pretty much repeats itself, as well. I find this form very interesting, especially as it looks like a hybrid combination of Do San and Won Hyo. Again, we see only 2 kicks.

To the bold, I'd agree. In fact that was my thoughts on watching it. As before, very similar to the Shotokan kata Heian Nidan:

Taeguek 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q66i338xIpA

29 moves. We see some consistency between these three older forms, with the spear hand strike and reinforced elbow. This form also adds the two-arm movement of knife hand high block and upset knife hand strike. In the TTA, we don't see this until brown belt with Choong Moo hyung. This form also adds a kicking combination using a back leg front kick followed by a punch, and then two back leg side kicks (which I think is technically difficult). This form has 6 kicks total. It also presents an interesting block/kick/block segment with a back leg front kick, landing back behind where it started, followed by an inside block (or could this be a strike?!). This form has some interesting turns at this point, as well, where the body turns one direction, and then the inside block comes from the other, which appears weird to me. We also see a dramatic decrease in the number of walking stances, and more use of the front stance instead.

I will say it's also nice to see that all forms posted so far show balance between right and left side with each movement being performed with both right and left leg and hand.

[bushido_man96]

In my experience with folks who do Chang Hon tul (ITF-style) there's a large variety of thoughts and feelings toward sine wave. There are a lot of folks who's lineage never kept up with the "latest" updates on these forms. For these folks, seeing sine wave for the first time seemed odd, at best, and silly, at worst. Some folks who were closely connected to the ITF (and General Choi, particularly) embraced sine wave more easily, because they took the time to understand it more fully.

You are right in that it has changed a lot over the years. But a lot of this is due to context I think. How do you make Taekwon-Do look different from and be "better" than Karate (and Kukkiwon TKD)? Introduce this movement called sine wave. It seems many people went the route of bigger being better without fully understanding why. Now it's becoming more and more refined and we are told to tone down the movement and pull it back to something more useful rather than something that is just different.

I guess this has been my biggest issue with what I have seen with sine wave usage. Its touted as a natural movement, like what happens while walking. But the movement has mutated into something that is no longer natural.

[bushido_man96]

Maybe it's because the form set I learnt, the Chang Hon (ITF) system is fairly conservative with the kicks until 2nd kup and beyond, but the ATA forms seem crazy difficult to me for a low colour belt student to do. You compare it to the 6th kup form Won Hyo from the ITF system which seems much easier on the kicking front:

HU Lee's goals in creating his form system was to emphasize kicking more, since TKD was known as a kicking style, so he began to implement more kicking into the forms from early on. These jump front kicks that we've seen so far in the ATA forms are a jump front kick that the students in our school do in orientation and every day in basics. And through the first four forms, we've seen the basic kicks of front, round, and side, with some variants. With diligent practice in class, the students pick up on the kicking techniques like they do the hand techniques. It really goes pretty smoothly, I think.

So this is obviously the same form as Do San performed at 7th kup in ITF. In his performance, the moves which stood out to me were the wedging blocks. Application-wise I have been taught this is to wedge between an attackers arms if they were to attack with a grabbing type motion i.e. grabbing your shoulders or head with both hands. His movement would not make sense for this application as his arms come across the body rather than upwards (here). Our movement is more like up and out like this.

We do the movement with the arms crossed in front, much like you do. I chose this link because he doesn't do the sine wave.

Though I found this to be an interesting take on the movement:

I do like this one, as well! Nice find, thanks for sharing that here.

Yes, you also noted the difference in rank between when you do this form and when we do it. I'm guessing you would already be doing this form, but we have Bo Chung added in between Dan Gun and Do San.

To the bold, I'd agree. In fact that was my thoughts on watching it. As before, very similar to the Shotokan kata Heian Nidan:

That's the one. Thanks again, Danielle!

I'm glad that we can really take the time to break these down a bit and look into them more. I'd love to see some more thoughts from some WTF/Kukki stylists, as well.

[IcemanSK]

In my experience with folks who do Chang Hon tul (ITF-style) there's a large variety of thoughts and feelings toward sine wave. There are a lot of folks who's lineage never kept up with the "latest" updates on these forms. For these folks, seeing sine wave for the first time seemed odd, at best, and silly, at worst. Some folks who were closely connected to the ITF (and General Choi, particularly) embraced sine wave more easily, because they took the time to understand it more fully.

You are right in that it has changed a lot over the years. But a lot of this is due to context I think. How do you make Taekwon-Do look different from and be "better" than Karate (and Kukkiwon TKD)? Introduce this movement called sine wave. It seems many people went the route of bigger being better without fully understanding why. Now it's becoming more and more refined and we are told to tone down the movement and pull it back to something more useful rather than something that is just different.

I often wonder if sine wave isn't (in some places) taken to an extreme that it was never meant to go. Something meant to be a way to demonstrate how power is generated taken to a sometimes comical extreme. I've seen (again, in some places) people trying to put sine wave in where it seems odd, awkward and out of place. Almost as if sine wave itself is the technique, instead of the kick, punch or block.

[bushido_man96]

In my experience with folks who do Chang Hon tul (ITF-style) there's a large variety of thoughts and feelings toward sine wave. There are a lot of folks who's lineage never kept up with the "latest" updates on these forms. For these folks, seeing sine wave for the first time seemed odd, at best, and silly, at worst. Some folks who were closely connected to the ITF (and General Choi, particularly) embraced sine wave more easily, because they took the time to understand it more fully.

You are right in that it has changed a lot over the years. But a lot of this is due to context I think. How do you make Taekwon-Do look different from and be "better" than Karate (and Kukkiwon TKD)? Introduce this movement called sine wave. It seems many people went the route of bigger being better without fully understanding why. Now it's becoming more and more refined and we are told to tone down the movement and pull it back to something more useful rather than something that is just different.

I often wonder if sine wave isn't (in some places) taken to an extreme that it was never meant to go. Something meant to be a way to demonstrate how power is generated taken to a sometimes comical extreme. I've seen (again, in some places) people trying to put sine wave in where it seems odd, awkward and out of place. Almost as if sine wave itself is the technique, instead of the kick, punch or block.

This is a very good point, and at times when I watch ITF forms, I get that feeling, as well.

Here's another version of Do San that I have saved to my playlists:

This guy has pretty good power, but lots more sine wave, especially in the punches. In my opinion, they take way to long to set up, and the sine wave, the way it is done here, presents a huge telegraph. The sine wave also stymies combinations in the forms. When I do this form, at the beginning, its outside block, then a slight pull-back of the hip, and then punch. Then a quick adjustment step to the other side, we call it stepping "one line to two lines," and then boom, we're off. Also, the two punches after the wedging blocks and front kick are a quick combination, no pause to set up the sine wave.

[Harkon72]

Yes, the bounce there is very pronounced, and a clear telegraph. You say this sine wave contributes to power, in this case, I can't see how.

[bushido_man96]

Yes, the bounce there is very pronounced, and a clear telegraph. You say this sine wave contributes to power, in this case, I can't see how.

I don't say it contributes to power. There are claims that sine wave does contribute power, but in my opinion it has to come from the more natural sine wave motion that happens when moving in a natural motion.

I did say the guy in the video had good power, but not necessarily as a result of the sine wave.

[sensei8]

If I've not said this before, let me say it now!! I've only a 6th Gup in TKD under GM Young Ik Suh, and this topic/thread is dynamite through and through! Gives many TKD practitioners a lot to think about from each form you cover!

[IcemanSK]

Tae Geuk Sa Jang (#4) is a big change from the familiar motions of TG 1-3. While pattern of the form itself is familiar to the student, the techniques take on a much different tone and complexity.