How to win a grappler

[bushido_man96]

Another question is rule set. Am I allowed to stick my fingers in his eyes? Am I allowed to bite his neck? Pinch the skin under his arm? Jab a finger into his throat? Head butt his nose? If not, sure, he's at a huge advantage if he gets his hands on me. But I can do most of those things while he has me in his grip, I believe I have the advantage over him no matter where the fight takes place! I have the advantage in striking, and I have the advantage in "critical range" unless his skill level is equal to mine.

The grappler has all these tools at their disposal, as well. And as mentioned earlier, throws don't happen slowly, and often the grab is going to be using a body lock, or more than just a wrist grab.

With Wrestlers, you have to think about more than just the grab that is coming. If they are a good shooter, then they are going to likely change level and hit you hard and fast, and the next thing you know you've been dumped on your back. If a Greco-Roman stylists gets ahold of you, get ready to go for a five-point ride, which will likely hurt very much. There is a lot that goes into it, for sure.

[armanox]

From a karate perspective: know your balance. Controlling your balance and foot positions will make you more difficult to throw, and regaining your balance when they attempt to disrupt it is no easy task, but critical, for staying on your feet.

As someone who sometimes works with his jujitsu buddies, the next thing that helps is, like most people say, to know some grappling. We practice throws (judo based) and locks in karate, and I have Aikido experience that I've found to be very valuable for escapes and avoiding being submitted on the ground. What I lack, however, is more experience in these scenarios, and the training in getting the upper hand on the ground that comes with jujitsu and wrestling. (Side note, I've also learned I'm most vulnerable to a throw or take down when I'm attempting to do one to them. My Aikido needs some work...better atemi required).

Having more tools in your library is indeed your best bet, and having the practice with those tools is required. Work with your grappling friends more, you'll find certain pieces of your training work well, some you'll adapt, and some you'll find don't apply to these situations. Remember a grappler will take a few punches to get inside on you - you need to be able to stay mobile, move off the line, and keep them in your comfort zone. Until they get in their zone, you've got the upper hand. It's a thin line that's hard to avoid, but it makes all the difference.

[guird]

A solid tuite practioner with joint locks or someone that has a really good judo hip toss in thier arsenal my want to contest the attackers takedown little more than people think.

These are grappling techniques, albeit practiced as part of a striking-focused art. Hence it is simple repetition of the point that against a grappler it is best to have some grappling experience of your own.

[guird]

Another question is rule set. Am I allowed to stick my fingers in his eyes? Am I allowed to bite his neck? Pinch the skin under his arm? Jab a finger into his throat? Head butt his nose? If not, sure, he's at a huge advantage if he gets his hands on me. But I can do most of those things while he has me in his grip, I believe I have the advantage over him no matter where the fight takes place! I have the advantage in striking, and I have the advantage in "critical range" unless his skill level is equal to mine.

As Bushido_man already said, training grappling doesn't make your fingers go numb and your teeth fall out.

I would like to stress that attempting to maim someone in a certain range when they are versed in that range and you are not is a very bad idea. I have seen three videos in which someone attempted an eye gouge on a more experienced opponents, one was knocked out, and the other two had their arms broken. In all three cases they would have been allowed to leave the fight uninjured after tapping out if they had not escalated the level of violence.

This was still pretty reasonable of them, as they could also have used their better position and grip-fighting skills to counter-gouge.

[jaypo]

A solid tuite practioner with joint locks or someone that has a really good judo hip toss in thier arsenal my want to contest the attackers takedown little more than people think.

These are grappling techniques, albeit practiced as part of a striking-focused art. Hence it is simple repetition of the point that against a grappler it is best to have some grappling experience of your own.

As I was training tuite last night in my Kyusho class, my Sensei told me a story. His son is an MMA fighter whose base is TKD. He also trains in BJJ and wrestling. Both he and his son are about the same size (6'0, 210). His son was in town last week, and they decided to do some ground work. His son took him down and started doing what he was taught to do in BJJ. Sensei Defrene said that even though he was in a vulnerable position, he said his eyes opened up because of all of the targets he had available. He took his elbow and pressed it on the inside of his son's thigh as his son was attempting a RNC, and his son yelled and let go of the hold. He said that was the easiest one to hit, but he saw about a half dozen other techniques he could have used. His son had a bruise a for a week from just applying a little pressure while on defense on the ground!

That's the beauty of Kyusho that I'm finding. No matter what situation you're in, there are multiple ways to get out of it. Now, I can't say that I'd be able to prevent an olympic level wrestler from throwing me once he gets a double leg on me. But before I land, you can be assured that I will have activated at least 2 points on him, and he will be affected by it. Once we get on the ground, if I'm still conscious, and if I can still move my arms, he is at as much of a disadvantage as I am because I know how many targets I have available. And unless he has trained as I have, he doesn't! So he may think that his ability to keep me on the ground puts him in control. But once I dig my knuckle into spleen point 6, he'll have to seriously evaluate whether or not it's in his best interest to stay there!

[Wastelander]

A solid tuite practioner with joint locks or someone that has a really good judo hip toss in thier arsenal my want to contest the attackers takedown little more than people think.

These are grappling techniques, albeit practiced as part of a striking-focused art. Hence it is simple repetition of the point that against a grappler it is best to have some grappling experience of your own.

As I was training tuite last night in my Kyusho class, my Sensei told me a story. His son is an MMA fighter whose base is TKD. He also trains in BJJ and wrestling. Both he and his son are about the same size (6'0, 210). His son was in town last week, and they decided to do some ground work. His son took him down and started doing what he was taught to do in BJJ. Sensei Defrene said that even though he was in a vulnerable position, he said his eyes opened up because of all of the targets he had available. He took his elbow and pressed it on the inside of his son's thigh as his son was attempting a RNC, and his son yelled and let go of the hold. He said that was the easiest one to hit, but he saw about a half dozen other techniques he could have used. His son had a bruise a for a week from just applying a little pressure while on defense on the ground!

That's the beauty of Kyusho that I'm finding. No matter what situation you're in, there are multiple ways to get out of it. Now, I can't say that I'd be able to prevent an olympic level wrestler from throwing me once he gets a double leg on me. But before I land, you can be assured that I will have activated at least 2 points on him, and he will be affected by it. Once we get on the ground, if I'm still conscious, and if I can still move my arms, he is at as much of a disadvantage as I am because I know how many targets I have available. And unless he has trained as I have, he doesn't! So he may think that his ability to keep me on the ground puts him in control. But once I dig my knuckle into spleen point 6, he'll have to seriously evaluate whether or not it's in his best interest to stay there!

The attack to the inside of the thigh that you mention has been used in MMA--it's no secret--but I would say that it works maybe 1 time out of every 10 attempts. A friend of mine is quite good at tuite, kyusho, and kiko, but ended up pinned and eventually choked out by a judoka in an MMA fight. He landed several strikes to effective kyusho points, but they didn't work for him on that person in that environment, and he didn't have the grappling fundamentals to escape the position he was put into.

Kyusho is helpful, but it is not a panacea. Grapplers are very skilled at grip fighting, and usually have a good understanding of limb control and body weight distribution. These things make it very difficult to apply pressure to a point for any decent length of time, and being on the ground limits the power and speed with which you can strike. On top of that, in a high-stress environment like a real fight or self defense situation, kyusho points are less effective thanks to adrenaline and other "fight or flight" chemicals rushing through the body.

[jaypo]

I agree. And one of the things that Sensei constantly drills to us is that some techniques just don't work on some people for whatever reason. But he also says that some people can condition some points to take pain, but nobody can condition their eyes or certain other points. What really matters is the skill level of the 2 combatants. The thread is "how to win vs. a grappler", so if I'm more skilled as a striker than he is as a grappler, I'd have the advantage (in most cases). I believe that to win vs. a grappler, a striker needs to be able to remain upright first and foremost, and if taken down, know how to defend intelligently while finding either some kind of offense from the ground or find a way to get back upright!

I never got into "wrestling". I was always the skinny, weak kid on the block, so it wasn't much of a contest. And therefore, I got bullied a lot by the bigger, stronger "wrestlers". I grew to equate wrestlers to bullies simply because that was what my life experiences had taught me! Since there were no programs around me to learn wrestling, I took up Shotokan and became pretty decent at it. However, we rarely did any throws or takedowns.

Now, one of the things I like to train the most is takedowns and throws. We don't focus on it, but we do incorporate some throws. Most of them come from our katas. I enjoy it now because I am bigger and stronger compared to when I was young, and those attributes make me better at it. I don't think I could "outwrestle" someone that constantly trains in wrestling, and I don't think I would outgrapple a BJJ or Judoka. However, an encounter with those types of guys won't start with me on the ground. And before I get to the ground, they're going to have to be in my comfort zone dealing with my strong points before we get to theirs. Unless they're on my level of striking, I'd say I have a pretty decent chance of ending the encounter before we enter their comfort zone. If not, I'd be at a disadvantage, but I would not be totally helpless.

So in short, I'm pretty confident that if I encounter a grappler on an even playing field, if it makes it into grappling range, there's a pretty good chance that he's not taking me down at 100%. He's going to eat some strikes. At that point, it will depend on who is the mentally stronger person.

[guird]

I agree. And one of the things that Sensei constantly drills to us is that some techniques just don't work on some people for whatever reason. But he also says that some people can condition some points to take pain, but nobody can condition their eyes or certain other points. What really matters is the skill level of the 2 combatants. The thread is "how to win vs. a grappler", so if I'm more skilled as a striker than he is as a grappler, I'd have the advantage (in most cases). I believe that to win vs. a grappler, a striker needs to be able to remain upright first and foremost, and if taken down, know how to defend intelligently while finding either some kind of offense from the ground or find a way to get back upright!

I never got into "wrestling". I was always the skinny, weak kid on the block, so it wasn't much of a contest. And therefore, I got bullied a lot by the bigger, stronger "wrestlers". I grew to equate wrestlers to bullies simply because that was what my life experiences had taught me! Since there were no programs around me to learn wrestling, I took up Shotokan and became pretty decent at it. However, we rarely did any throws or takedowns.

Now, one of the things I like to train the most is takedowns and throws. We don't focus on it, but we do incorporate some throws. Most of them come from our katas. I enjoy it now because I am bigger and stronger compared to when I was young, and those attributes make me better at it. I don't think I could "outwrestle" someone that constantly trains in wrestling, and I don't think I would outgrapple a BJJ or Judoka. However, an encounter with those types of guys won't start with me on the ground. And before I get to the ground, they're going to have to be in my comfort zone dealing with my strong points before we get to theirs. Unless they're on my level of striking, I'd say I have a pretty decent chance of ending the encounter before we enter their comfort zone. If not, I'd be at a disadvantage, but I would not be totally helpless.

So in short, I'm pretty confident that if I encounter a grappler on an even playing field, if it makes it into grappling range, there's a pretty good chance that he's not taking me down at 100%. He's going to eat some strikes. At that point, it will depend on who is the mentally stronger person.

This all sounds interesting. Why not take it one step further - ask some judo, bjj, or wrestlers in your area to spar, try this out. If you want to eye gouge, buy some goggles and propose it as part of the ruleset. Put a vid here, I would watch with interest.

I think you should realise one other thing as well - an eye attack, even if successful, while excruciating and delibitating, isn't a magic off switch. Gerard Gordeau famously lost an MMA fight after blinding his opponent in one eye, for example.

[jaypo]

I agree. And one of the things that Sensei constantly drills to us is that some techniques just don't work on some people for whatever reason. But he also says that some people can condition some points to take pain, but nobody can condition their eyes or certain other points. What really matters is the skill level of the 2 combatants. The thread is "how to win vs. a grappler", so if I'm more skilled as a striker than he is as a grappler, I'd have the advantage (in most cases). I believe that to win vs. a grappler, a striker needs to be able to remain upright first and foremost, and if taken down, know how to defend intelligently while finding either some kind of offense from the ground or find a way to get back upright!

I never got into "wrestling". I was always the skinny, weak kid on the block, so it wasn't much of a contest. And therefore, I got bullied a lot by the bigger, stronger "wrestlers". I grew to equate wrestlers to bullies simply because that was what my life experiences had taught me! Since there were no programs around me to learn wrestling, I took up Shotokan and became pretty decent at it. However, we rarely did any throws or takedowns.

Now, one of the things I like to train the most is takedowns and throws. We don't focus on it, but we do incorporate some throws. Most of them come from our katas. I enjoy it now because I am bigger and stronger compared to when I was young, and those attributes make me better at it. I don't think I could "outwrestle" someone that constantly trains in wrestling, and I don't think I would outgrapple a BJJ or Judoka. However, an encounter with those types of guys won't start with me on the ground. And before I get to the ground, they're going to have to be in my comfort zone dealing with my strong points before we get to theirs. Unless they're on my level of striking, I'd say I have a pretty decent chance of ending the encounter before we enter their comfort zone. If not, I'd be at a disadvantage, but I would not be totally helpless.

So in short, I'm pretty confident that if I encounter a grappler on an even playing field, if it makes it into grappling range, there's a pretty good chance that he's not taking me down at 100%. He's going to eat some strikes. At that point, it will depend on who is the mentally stronger person.

This all sounds interesting. Why not take it one step further - ask some judo, bjj, or wrestlers in your area to spar, try this out. If you want to eye gouge, buy some goggles and propose it as part of the ruleset. Put a vid here, I would watch with interest.

I think you should realise one other thing as well - an eye attack, even if successful, while excruciating and delibitating, isn't a magic off switch. Gerard Gordeau famously lost an MMA fight after blinding his opponent in one eye, for example.

I would love to, but we've invited students from a couple of BJJ clubs around here to come train with us, and nobody has taken us up on it. There is only one of my friends that would be willing to do so with me, but he outweighs me by 80lbs (of muscle!), and he's a brown belt in BJJ, so regardless of our respecitve skill levels, I don't think that would work in this specific example. The only time I have trained with him and his students, everything I was able to do that gave me the advantage was "against the rule set". For example, when I would be in the guard, as my opponent would attempt a submission, I had a clear access to the groin, but it's not legal. I had clear access to points on his ankle, calf, and thigh, but I was not able to execute them because it was against the rules. So I was never truly able to test anything out because I was restricted to the grapplers' rules. Now, if my buddy and I would square off, if I wasn't able to put him out before he grabbed me, I'm sure it would be over for me. I don't have the size and strength to overcome someone of his size and strength with his skill level (he's a world class BJJ practitioner and trains with American Top Team). However, if we were the same size and strength, I would have a decent chance. Especially if he fights me using the same techniques that were used when I was in the guard.

For all the grapplers in here, I'm in no way trying to downplay the grappling arts. As a matter of fact, I wish we did more of it. (I would love to train JUDO, but there are no schools anywhere around me) I am just offering my thoughts on the subject of how to win vs. a grappler. I would have to try the tools that I have in my arsenal, and I think they would give me a pretty decent chance. However, if I'm tackled by Daniel Cormier, I would pretty much accept defeat!!