How to win a grappler

[shinaido]

If wrestler catches you, not much can be done, get ready for landing. Only way to prevent throw is to keep distance. I do both karate and wrestling, not many things from karate works in sparring with wrestle.

[wildbourgman]

If wrestler catches you, not much can be done, get ready for landing. Only way to prevent throw is to keep distance. I do both karate and wrestling, not many things from karate works in sparring with wrestle.

shinaido, I would bet your right when talking about sparring, but that's the problem. The only way to know is to go all out, you can't go against a wrestler or grappler and not be allowed to use your strengths as a karate-ka.

What I'm saying is that two karate practioners or two wrestlers can spar with rules set for that art and get an idea who is better in that setting, but with two very different martial arts it's not easy to spar per se.

I'm thinking that's why MMA folks are diversifying so much.

In some of the studying that I have done it seems Okinawan karate way before it was known as karate was much more diversified. Even Gichin Funakoshi is pictured using throws, hand and arms locks and take downs. From what I've understand the existance of styles that specialized and pigeon holed themselves came before (kung fu) and after (karate) they arrived in Okinawa.

[Kanku65]

In some of the studying that I have done it seems Okinawan karate way before it was known as karate was much more diversified. Even Gichin Funakoshi is pictured using throws, hand and arms locks and take downs. From what I've understand the existance of styles that specialized and pigeon holed themselves came before (kung fu) and after (karate) they arrived in Okinawa.

Yes, Gichin Funakoshi was in fact a huge supporter of many different wrestling styles, and I believe was close friends with Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo. This is why I believe that for any striking/standup MAist, it is important to have sound knowledge of at least some form of wrestling/grappling MA.

One day I will hopefully find time to learn a grappling art.

[guird]

If wrestler catches you, not much can be done, get ready for landing. Only way to prevent throw is to keep distance. I do both karate and wrestling, not many things from karate works in sparring with wrestle.

shinaido, I would bet your right when talking about sparring, but that's the problem. The only way to know is to go all out, you can't go against a wrestler or grappler and not be allowed to use your strengths as a karate-ka.

What I'm saying is that two karate practioners or two wrestlers can spar with rules set for that art and get an idea who is better in that setting, but with two very different martial arts it's not easy to spar per se.

I'm thinking that's why MMA folks are diversifying so much.

In some of the studying that I have done it seems Okinawan karate way before it was known as karate was much more diversified. Even Gichin Funakoshi is pictured using throws, hand and arms locks and take downs. From what I've understand the existance of styles that specialized and pigeon holed themselves came before (kung fu) and after (karate) they arrived in Okinawa.

I think this entire discussion is predicated on the assumption that the rules are at least hybrid(striking and grappling), if not no holds barred. The overall opinion is that a pure striker is easy prey for a grappler and especially a balanced fighter. I have to say I agree. When a pure striker and pure grappler spar, victory is determined by takedowns, defending them on the part of the striker and executing them on the part of the grappler. Grappling arts almost invariably spend more time on takedowns, and so have a distinct edge.

We haven't even discussed high amplitude throws yet, which add another element when it comes to the process of getting to the ground.

It's like you said, it's best to be a balanced fighter.

[wildbourgman]

If wrestler catches you, not much can be done, get ready for landing. Only way to prevent throw is to keep distance. I do both karate and wrestling, not many things from karate works in sparring with wrestle.

shinaido, I would bet your right when talking about sparring, but that's the problem. The only way to know is to go all out, you can't go against a wrestler or grappler and not be allowed to use your strengths as a karate-ka.

What I'm saying is that two karate practioners or two wrestlers can spar with rules set for that art and get an idea who is better in that setting, but with two very different martial arts it's not easy to spar per se.

I'm thinking that's why MMA folks are diversifying so much.

In some of the studying that I have done it seems Okinawan karate way before it was known as karate was much more diversified. Even Gichin Funakoshi is pictured using throws, hand and arms locks and take downs. From what I've understand the existance of styles that specialized and pigeon holed themselves came before (kung fu) and after (karate) they arrived in Okinawa.

I think this entire discussion is predicated on the assumption that the rules are at least hybrid(striking and grappling), if not no holds barred. The overall opinion is that a pure striker is easy prey for a grappler and especially a balanced fighter. I have to say I agree. When a pure striker and pure grappler spar, victory is determined by takedowns, defending them on the part of the striker and executing them on the part of the grappler. Grappling arts almost invariably spend more time on takedowns, and so have a distinct edge.

We haven't even discussed high amplitude throws yet, which add another element when it comes to the process of getting to the ground.

It's like you said, it's best to be a balanced fighter.

I agree, I think the question is what happens when the grappler trys to get his hands on you or the instant he does get his hand on you?

A solid tuite practioner with joint locks or someone that has a really good judo hip toss in thier arsenal my want to contest the attackers takedown little more than people think.

Just in case members can't tell yet I'm a big believer in tuite and other parts of Okinawan derived martial, arts. I feel like I went 25 years with only knowing one portion of karate and now I'm seeing what I felt like I missed. I've also talked to many karate-ka that felt the same, many of them in the States went to Brazilian ju-jistu to account for this.

[jaypo]

Wildbourgman- I share your sentiments. I've obtained a Nidan ranking in Okinawan Karate, and I'm now learning more of the tuite, throws, and takedowns in those arts. I'm also training with a Kyusho black belt that is helping me to understand why some techniques work and slight variations to what I already know to make it more effective. I fully believe that even if a grappler "gets his hands on me", he'll have to put me out quickly. Because if he doesn't, I have a whole lot of things to attack!

Another question is rule set. Am I allowed to stick my fingers in his eyes? Am I allowed to bite his neck? Pinch the skin under his arm? Jab a finger into his throat? Head butt his nose? If not, sure, he's at a huge advantage if he gets his hands on me. But I can do most of those things while he has me in his grip, I believe I have the advantage over him no matter where the fight takes place! I have the advantage in striking, and I have the advantage in "critical range" unless his skill level is equal to mine.

[sensei8]

Wildbourgman- I share your sentiments. I've obtained a Nidan ranking in Okinawan Karate, and I'm now learning more of the tuite, throws, and takedowns in those arts. I'm also training with a Kyusho black belt that is helping me to understand why some techniques work and slight variations to what I already know to make it more effective. I fully believe that even if a grappler "gets his hands on me", he'll have to put me out quickly. Because if he doesn't, I have a whole lot of things to attack!

Another question is rule set. Am I allowed to stick my fingers in his eyes? Am I allowed to bite his neck? Pinch the skin under his arm? Jab a finger into his throat? Head butt his nose? If not, sure, he's at a huge advantage if he gets his hands on me. But I can do most of those things while he has me in his grip, I believe I have the advantage over him no matter where the fight takes place! I have the advantage in striking, and I have the advantage in "critical range" unless his skill level is equal to mine.

Solid post!!

[shinaido]

It is easy to say, I would be able to put my fingers in his eyes, punch to the throat .... I thought the same till i did not try all of those with group of wrestlers, in controlled sparring, conclusion is that there is no time for all of those. When wrestler grabs you the throw is so quick that there is no time ( I am talking about trained wrestler).

I have friends who train Judo and working at the door in clubs and pubs. I have seen in real life how people end up trying to punch them.

My point is that you can keep grappler on distance but if you are grabbed by one to fight back you need to know some counter techniques.

I did go through test my karate skills against bjj, wrestling and judo guys, highly recommend to do the same

Regards Les

[sensei8]

IMHO....

This bears to be repeated....it's not the style that's at fault, but it's the practitioner who's at fault!!

Shindokan isn't just stand-up karate! Our brand of Tuite and Tegumi has methods that can fend off a charging grappler, but again, things happen that don't and won't favor me! Yet, I don't panic!!

I'm not a nice and fair fighter!!

[shinaido]

True not style but fighter wins bouts.