Heel down?

[hansenator]

In formal practice it seems that karate keeps the heels on the floor when punching. When I watch sparring though, or even videos of high level karateka punching the makiwara, there's a lot of lifting the heels up.

Personally, I don't seem to have the hip flexibility to rotate my hips to the front while maintaining a proper front stance. But I do pretty well with western boxing style punches or certain kung fu punches where you pivot on the ball of the foot, and people have told me that I hit really hard.

I was just wondering what people's thoughts are on this? I'm hoping to understand the whole thing a little better.

Thanks.

[Zaine]

I didn't encounter this when I was starting, but I might be able to offer some explanation.

There are many ways to generate power in Martial Arts. When we turn our heel as we punch, we generate power by the turn of the body helping the momentum of our first. When we keep our heels on the ground, we lose this power. However, when we don't have power we must focus on technique and find a different way to generate enough power to make the technique effective.

I imagine that when you are doing formal practice, you keep your heel on the ground so that you can work on technique.

Again, I didn't encounter this as a beginning karateka, so someone may have a better answer.

[bushido_man96]

I have a few takes on this.

1. When something is in front of you, and you are actually making contact, stances may tend to shorten, and shorter stances will see the heel coming off the ground.

2. I think that the heel flat on the floor aspect of stances in technique has become an aesthetics thing that has carried over into forms, especially competition. I think it has come out from the traditional approach of seeking to perfect things, even when one cannot be perfect, and along those lines has come the refinement of technique, and not just for power and speed, but for grace and elegance, as well. A long front stance with the back foot flat on the ground looks nice. Whether its any more or less practical for generating power than a Boxing stance with a lifted heel for power is a different debate altogether.

But these are my two cents on the matter.

[mal103]

Powerful punches can be made with the help of the hips, to use them fully they need firm footing, some punches start from the rear heel. Often in sparring you can get more speed in stepping in fast and sliding in, normally this will have the rear heel raised.

in reality the feet should just do their best to position and support the technique, good to be more flexible to increase their range. To prove punches then hit something in all stances and variations, then more freely.

[Wastelander]

The general idea, as I was taught, is that pivoting and driving off the back heel moves all of your weight in the direction of your strike, while pivoting on the ball of the foot moves some of your weight away from your strike. Now, if you stand still and pivot on your heels, and then the balls of your feet, you can tell that this statement is technically true. When you push off your back foot, as you would when punching, it is a different matter, entirely! Both techniques move your weight into your strike--one just moves you farther.

The way I see it, the idea of keeping your heels on the ground is based on a self defense context. It is easier to keep your balance and stay standing up if your feet are firmly planted. It's much like a defensive grappling approach to footwork. Conversely, sparring and striking-based sport fighting take place at a much greater distance, and require greater speed and mobility, which a planted stance will hinder. Just listen to any sport fighting commentary, and you'll hear complaints about "flat-footed" strikers that can't keep up with their more mobile opponents. That doesn't mean one is inherently better than another, but they are suited to different situations.

Of course, you can always mix-and-match. There are times when you can/should pivot on the heel and keep your feet planted, and times when you can/should pivot on the ball of the foot and lift the heel. Figuring out the feel for when to use each will come with time.

[hansenator]

pivoting and driving off the back heel moves all of your weight in the direction of your strike, while pivoting on the ball of the foot moves some of your weight away from your strike.

I've noticed the above and have experimented with it. It seems to be more true when you pivot on the ball of the foot while keeping the heel down, the stance becomes longer and moves you further from the target. Raising the heel as you pivot seems to work better as you can maintain the same stance length and the weight doesn't move back.

I've seen the argument that, with the heel down, you can push harder and therefore punch harder. I don't really agree as I feel punching is more ballistic than pushing against something. When people throw a ball, swing a bat or, or put a shot, it's never done flat footed. Any time people need to generate power or move athletically, they tend to be on the balls of the feet.

It does make sense that you need to maintain solid footing when you're at close range with an opponent or when the ground is slippery, which is probably why martial arts are practiced flat footed.

[sensei8]

This argument will never die!!

Let me ask you all this...

What does your STYLE teach? Do you believe in what your style is teaching? Do you believe what your CI is teaching you?

Heel down?! Heel up?!

This must be discovered by YOU!! Today...you're of the opinion that heel down is more effective! Tomorrow...you're of the opinion that heel up is more effective! And as you go thru Shu Ha Ri, you might go from one opinion to the other over and over. To me, this isn't a bad thing, but more or less, it's what one discovers as one trains to improve ones own MA betterment. But the core of what your style teaches remains! You're just going to have to fine tune the whole darn thing!!

Question it! Deny it! Examine it! Tear it apart...over and over...again and again, if necessary!!

Having said that...

Boxing's cross/hook is NOT the same as a Karate straight punch, Gyaku-Zuki. In basics, back heel is kept down. Why? It's easier to utilize, and this means control, the hip rotation because it lives on a horizontal plane.

Movements are isolated, and it prevents the elbow from rising upward too soon. Too soon might cause one to throw more of a hook than straight. Straight is the idea in Gyaku-Zuki, after all. Wherever the target might be, the straight line from "A" to "B" is intentional at all times for Gyaku-Zuki.

Also, especially for beginners, but also for all levels, imho, it's beneficial to keep the back heel down because it's so much less stressful on the body, more importantly, concerning the Achilles tendon.

It's our/your styles methodologies as well as ideologies that dictate how techniques should be executed. It's foolish to criticize the style that you believe in because their way has been your way since day one when you first walked upon the floor. However, it's not foolish to explore and examine and

question and discover everything each and everyday.

Back heel up or down?!?!

That answer will have to be found by YOU...each and everyday! Listen to the advice of those in your style that have been there and have bought the t-shirt; your styles high ranking instructors. If you can't trust them and believe in what they're teaching...well...then you'll not believe anyone else.

Imho!!

[hansenator]

I've trained in probably three distinctly different punching styles and I can't honestly say that I hit harder one way or another. What I can say is that I don't seem to have the hip mobility for a text book karate reverse punch. To turn my hips to the front requires turning my foot.

Since most of my training history has been in JKD, that's what comes most naturally to me but I'm always interested in learning about and trying to understand other approaches.

If I ask silly questions, it's because I'm trying to understand better and am trying to relate it to what I'm already familiar with.

[Wastelander]

I've trained in probably three distinctly different punching styles and I can't honestly say that I hit harder one way or another. What I can say is that I don't seem to have the hip mobility for a text book karate reverse punch. To turn my hips to the front requires turning my foot.

Since most of my training history has been in JKD, that's what comes most naturally to me but I'm always interested in learning about and trying to understand other approaches.

If I ask silly questions, it's because I'm trying to understand better and am trying to relate it to what I'm already familiar with.

Typically--not always, but typically--the issue you describe can be resolved by shortening your stance. You only have so much leg to drive your hip with, and if your stance is too long for your legs, you won't have any leg left to drive with. Of course, it is possible that you really do have restricted hip mobility, and my suggestion won't help. I would still give it a try, though.

I will point out that you definitely do limit the amount your hips can move when you keep the heel planted. You'll never be able to move them as much with your heel planted as you can with your heel up. Sometimes that's good, and sometimes it's bad.

[sensei8]

I've trained in probably three distinctly different punching styles and I can't honestly say that I hit harder one way or another. What I can say is that I don't seem to have the hip mobility for a text book karate reverse punch. To turn my hips to the front requires turning my foot.

Since most of my training history has been in JKD, that's what comes most naturally to me but I'm always interested in learning about and trying to understand other approaches.

If I ask silly questions, it's because I'm trying to understand better and am trying to relate it to what I'm already familiar with.

Typically--not always, but typically--the issue you describe can be resolved by shortening your stance. You only have so much leg to drive your hip with, and if your stance is too long for your legs, you won't have any leg left to drive with. Of course, it is possible that you really do have restricted hip mobility, and my suggestion won't help. I would still give it a try, though.

I will point out that you definitely do limit the amount your hips can move when you keep the heel planted. You'll never be able to move them as much with your heel planted as you can with your heel up. Sometimes that's good, and sometimes it's bad.

However, you don't plant your heel in midstream of any punching technique. You must allow the technique to complete, and the heel planting isn't done until the exact moment in the punching technique. Plant the heel too soon, arrests the power curve, thusly, your hip movement's arrested as well.

Don't plant the back heel UNTIL it's time to do so; AT THE END!!