Student to teacher?

[SBN Doug]

ckdstudent,

 

That wasn't the question I was addressing. Of course the instructor has a responsibility to properly represent what he teaches.

 

The question was, does the student hold any of the responsibilty for "breaking the McDojo chain", as I'll call it. The way I read Borzoi's statement was, that a McDojo teacher may very well have been a McDojo student. This student thought they were being taught effective techniques. This student excells (who wouldn't at a McDojo ) and decides to open their own school. They now propogate the McDojo taught material to another generation of students.

 

My opinion is that there IS a responsibility for the student to break this chain once it has become apparent to them (if it ever does). Should they not care that they are learning bogus techniques, then they've made a decision to continue the chain. Should they care what they are being taught, they then shoulder the responsibility to leave and find a legitamate MA school.

 

A long time back in this forum (or at least it seems a long time back ), I gave my history with my first organized MA instruction. To make that long story short, I realized that the guys running the school was hanging out with drug dealers. I didn't have proof he was using, but just associating with these guys was against everything I felt the MAs stood for. I also found out the magazine cover he was on was bogus. I was a senior in a VERY small town, and this school was my only chance to study. I had been wanting to study for a few years by that time. I walked out, knowing I would have to put my MAs studies on hold for another who knows how long. It became MY responsibility when I became aware of what was going on. I wouldn't be able to put all the blame on him, as the instuctor, if I knew it was bogus and decided to keep going there.

 

Sorry, I tend to ramble when I haven't finished my coffee yet.

[GoshinJutsu]

Folks, maybe if we re-read the original post here and then try to picture things like this: You have just began lessons in, say, Goju-Ryu. You love it and look forward to every class. The instructor/school owner is said to have trained with famous Goju-Ryu practicioners/teachers from Okinawa and with other people, whose instructor-to-student lineage comes ‘from the source,’ so to speak. After some time, you decide to start reading about martial arts history and notice that certain things your instructor tells you do not jive with what you are reading. You ask him/her about his and they tell you not to believe everything you read, etc. You still love the class and what you are learning, but you decide to, for the heck of it, contact some Goju-ryu people with live connections to organizations your instructor claims to belong or have belonged to. It turns out that your instructor’s claims are false and that they never earned an instructor’s rank in the martial art they teach. They studied for a time with so and so and go so far then dropped off the scene. Kinda like finding out your Scuba instructor never graduated the scuba course he or she is teaching you. Would you continue to pay that Scuba instructor for lessons? If Joe Shmoe came to your marital arts class and dropped out after several months, and then you see an advertisement for Joe Shmoe XYZ Karate, wouldn’t it concern you that Joe Shmoe is claiming to have earned a teacher’s rank in the style he studied for a time at your martial arts school? Martial arts schools are not regulated therefore the public can not really be sure that what they are paying for is authentic. It is my opinion that many people would not even think to do the minimal research required to spot fraud because existence tends to equal authenticity in the public eye concerning martial arts. It comes down to ethics and responsibility. I guess as to when a student becomes responsible in understanding what they are doing and where it is coming from begins at the get-go. But who would thinks to research besides those who have found frauds before? I assert that it is wrong and criminal to take peoples money in exchange for teaching something that you claim to have legitimate authority in. I know people who have done this and continue to do it. I totally agree with what KSN Doug pointed out about the classic 'buyer beware.' As for Bretty101's question as to who qualifies to teach unarmed self defense, I guess anyone qualifies to teach unarmed self defense. Heck, I could make up some new 'method' today and start giving lessons. But if I represent myself as a teacher of a pre-existing method, I had better darn well actually have been trained to the point of teaching the said method, or I will be deceiving the public.

 

And what becomes of the generation of teachers after the initial fraudulent teacher? They will continue on (often even after realizing their lineage is phony) or enter major denial when confronted with facts. “But the school has been around for 10 yrs and he is a ‘Master.’ It must be real.”

 

So it goes,

 

Richard

[hobbitbob]

Isn't this the same situation that the people in teh USKA were in, when it was discovered that Robert Trias hadn't actually studied with those he said he had studied under? Where does that leave someone? Especially if, as was the case with Trias, he was a proficient MA and so were most of his students?

[TeamHavok]

Interesting subject,

 

I didnt read all the replys, but here is mine....

 

The student, if he/she is dedicated enough will come to learn the truth on his/her own terms. "True Art" doesn't make the martial artist.....If they dont have the knowledge of "Traditional art" then they will seek out someone that does.

 

The great Ed Parker said it best when approached with the subject of "True" art....."When True knuckle meets true flesh, thats as true as it gets."

 

Parker also said something that all us Kenpo people know well....and it applies to ALL martial artists...."The person who knows how will always be the student, but the person that knows how and why will retain his/her position as the instructor."

 

True a bad instructor can be a bad influence on the martial arts community, but these kind of people can be avoided by exploring your options. All this "I am a MASTER", "I trained in Japan", and stuff like that does not impress me.....what impresses me is can u survive a street confrontation if the need arises? Can you teach me your Knowledge? Thats what will impress your students....not your credetials.

 

I train with 2 no-nonsense instructors:

 

Tito Ortiz(Grappling & Reality Fighting) Huntington Beach CA

 

Dave Brock(Kenpo Karate) Huntington Beach CA.

 

These guys will teach you to survive a street confrontation....no nonsense. Isnt this the ultimate purpose of our training in karate?

 

Just a thought

 

Hasta!!

 

Ryan P. Cashio

 

Co-Captain

 

Team Havok National Karate Team

[SBN Doug]

These guys will teach you to survive a street confrontation....no nonsense. Isnt this the ultimate purpose of our training in karate?

 

Welllllll, technically no. That is not necessarily everyone's ultimate purpose for studying martial arts. A large percentage, but not everyone.

[Kensai]

lol KSN.

 

Welllllllll, technically, its nothing to do with fighting. Its about creating the perfection of character. So in answer to your question.

 

"Isnt this the ultimate purpose of our training in karate?" I would say no. This is not what the great masters and founders created karate for.

 

Take Care.