Hand injuries and backfist?

[hansenator]

What is the risk of hand injury from backfisting someone?

I realize a backfist can be effective in self-defence but I see stories of people breaking their hands on other people's heads. I picture myself cracking a knuckle on a hard part of someone's skull or cutting the hand open on his teeth. I've been given the advice to use a hammerfist instead because there's less risk of injury to your hand, and it does feel a bit stronger on the heavy bag but what are your opinions?

I understand proper hand conditioning can make a difference but how much is necessary? I don't want to train something with self-defence in mind if it will injure me and I'm not comfortable relying on techniques that require extensive hand conditioning to be used effectively.

If anyone here has used the backfist for self-defense or some kind of bareknuckle encounter, would you be willing to share your experience?

Thanks.

[sensei8]

Most backfist injuries occur with improper execution!! Mechanics, imho, must be paramount to any technique. This will lessen injuries from the get-go!!

Hitting with only the knuckles should be backfist 101. Hitting with the soft tissue of your backhand area ISN'T proper for any backFIST, key word here is FIST. Not HAND. Train to strike with proper mechanics at all times.

Imho, some hand conditioning is essential. I'm a proponent of hand conditioning, so therefore, I'm going to train my students to train their hands to absorb impact trauma because it serves no purpose to strike/hit any target if it's going to hurt you as well.

First, proper mechanics, and second, hand conditioning of some sort.

[Harkon72]

Two injuries can occur with executing the back fist. The first comes from not focusing the strike properly, when you over extend the wrist towards the fingers. It happens when the target is immobile and the strike's focus is too deep. The second is physical tendon and soft tissue damage. This can happen when the fist is not conditioned and you strike a hard surface or edge. Both these injuries can be avoided if you follow the simple rule of striking soft targets with your bones, and hard ones with you fleshy body weapons. I know it can't always be that simple, but it is a rough guide.

[Wastelander]

sensei8 and Harkon72 have given you some good advice. The only thing I would add is that a backfist isn't really intended to be a fight finisher, for the most part. It's a GREAT technique to set up other techniques, though! It hurts quite a bit, and doesn't require a great deal of force to do so. If you're using it in that way, you aren't as likely to injure your hand, either, since you aren't putting as much power into it as you possibly could.

[hansenator]

Thanks for the replies.

I don't get into fights so I don't have much "real" experience. If I'm going to train something that can be used for self-defense though, I'd like it to be a good fit for me personally so I can have confidence that I won't injure myself through its use.

What do you think about substituting a hammerfist for the backfist, at least where it seems to work well? There seems like less risk of injury and it feels like a heavier blow when I practice on the heavy bag. Going back to my lack of experience though, well, that's why I ask.

[OleOle]

Thanks for the replies.

*snip*

What do you think about substituting a hammerfist for the backfist, at least where it seems to work well? There seems like less risk of injury and it feels like a heavier blow when I practice on the heavy bag. Going back to my lack of experience though, well, that's why I ask.

*snip*

I'm pretty new to MA so cannot really comment with any authority but from what you are saying and from my limited experience it would seem that if you can use a hammerfist in place of a backfist without distorting whatever technique that it is that you are using, then, well, go for it.

It would be good to hear some opinions from some of the more senior folks on the forum, nudge nudge

[Kanku65]

Backfist and bottomfist are 2 completely different strikes used in different situations.

Backfist really isnt meant to be a heavy strike. More a snapping technique which sends a good shock to your opponent through striking various points on the face. Cheek bones, bridge of nose, temple, or the mouth.

Bottomfist on the other hand has more power to it. Generally used for striking an opponent in the solar plexus. Of course it can be used to strike an opponents chin or throat, it is somewhat more difficult to make good connection using an upper level bottomfist rather than a stomach level.

Take for example, the kata Kanku-Dai, towards the end of a kata, we throw a backfist and then shift into bottomfist. The idea is shocking and stunning our opponent with the backfist to the face before shifting in and finishing them with a bottomfist to the solar plexus.

If the style of karate you train in teaches both techniques, then in my opinion both are essential. Most likely one cannot be supplemented for the other.

My advice to you is to speak with your sensei. Ask them for advice on improving your backfist technique to prevent injury to yourself before deciding to eliminate it from your training.

In 9 years I haven't heard a single story of someone splitting their hand open from a backfist. The stories of people cutting and even breaking their hands from throwing lunge punches and reverse punches are however countless.

I'm sorry this was so long, I hope it helps.

[sensei8]

Backfist and bottomfist are 2 completely different strikes used in different situations.

Backfist really isnt meant to be a heavy strike. More a snapping technique which sends a good shock to your opponent through striking various points on the face. Cheek bones, bridge of nose, temple, or the mouth.

Bottomfist on the other hand has more power to it. Generally used for striking an opponent in the solar plexus. Of course it can be used to strike an opponents chin or throat, it is somewhat more difficult to make good connection using an upper level bottomfist rather than a stomach level.

Take for example, the kata Kanku-Dai, towards the end of a kata, we throw a backfist and then shift into bottomfist. The idea is shocking and stunning our opponent with the backfist to the face before shifting in and finishing them with a bottomfist to the solar plexus.

If the style of karate you train in teaches both techniques, then in my opinion both are essential. Most likely one cannot be supplemented for the other.

My advice to you is to speak with your sensei. Ask them for advice on improving your backfist technique to prevent injury to yourself before deciding to eliminate it from your training.

In 9 years I haven't heard a single story of someone splitting their hand open from a backfist. The stories of people cutting and even breaking their hands from throwing lunge punches and reverse punches are however countless.

I'm sorry this was so long, I hope it helps.

Solid post!!

I wouldn't use a bottom fist in the similar fashion that the backfist strike requires; two separate strikes for different targets. The right tool for the appropriate target!!

[OleOle]

Backfist and bottomfist are 2 completely different strikes used in different situations.

Backfist really isnt meant to be a heavy strike. More a snapping technique which sends a good shock to your opponent through striking various points on the face. Cheek bones, bridge of nose, temple, or the mouth.

Bottomfist on the other hand has more power to it. Generally used for striking an opponent in the solar plexus. Of course it can be used to strike an opponents chin or throat, it is somewhat more difficult to make good connection using an upper level bottomfist rather than a stomach level.

Take for example, the kata Kanku-Dai, towards the end of a kata, we throw a backfist and then shift into bottomfist. The idea is shocking and stunning our opponent with the backfist to the face before shifting in and finishing them with a bottomfist to the solar plexus.

If the style of karate you train in teaches both techniques, then in my opinion both are essential. Most likely one cannot be supplemented for the other.

My advice to you is to speak with your sensei. Ask them for advice on improving your backfist technique to prevent injury to yourself before deciding to eliminate it from your training.

In 9 years I haven't heard a single story of someone splitting their hand open from a backfist. The stories of people cutting and even breaking their hands from throwing lunge punches and reverse punches are however countless.

I'm sorry this was so long, I hope it helps.

Thanks very much Kanku65, really appreciate your post, very helpful

[Kanku65]

You're very welcome.

I'd also like to point out a couple different variations of the backfist and bottomfist strikes.

1: movement #4 of Heian Shodan, we break free of an opponents grasp and throw a hammer fist from over top of our head. This is to demonstrate the options. We can strike our opponent on the top of the head, the bridge of their nose, their mouth, or my sensei's favourite example, attacking the clavicle.

2: first kiai point in Heian Yondan, we throw a very similar strike to that of movement #4 of Heian Shodan, but instead of hip action, we drive our weight forward, and strike over top again using a backfist opposed to a bottomfist. Again this is to demonstrate options. Bridge of nose, mouth, or surprisingly enough, solar plexus.