Hands on the hips?

[sensei8]

Don't misunderstand me, but at times, the trees do get in the way of seeing the forest. Speak with your Sensei about your concerns and the like because your Sensei is the final word in Shorin-ryu. After that...Shu Ha Ri!!

[guird]

different karate instructors seem to have different ideas about it. Some teach it to emphasize hip movement, but not for practical application at all, some say it is a grabbing motion (Though I rarely see these grabbing motions being drilled, and often see their hands come back empty), and others say it increases power (I agree with this, but the increase feels fairly minor to me, and it doesn't seem worth leaving yourself open for).

This was actually one of the reasons I stopped doing karate, practicing hikite was making it more difficult to keep my hands up in kickboxing.

Some people have no such problem however and train karate with hikite with no noticable effect on their boxing skills.

[RAM18]

I think this is where Karate suffers from tradition vs reality.

Katas, kihons and all line work we will be expected to have our hand on the hip, back straight and hips forward. its in the foundation of most karate styles generally. When we spar that all changes, hands up, hips sideways Sparring is much more natural body position but it is important to understand the traditional side of karate and why such things exist...

[Hawkmoon]

different karate instructors ... have different ideas about it....some say it is a grabbing motion

...Though I rarely see these grabbing motions being drilled, and often see their hands come back empty...

... others say it increases power ....

Yes!

Its as much to do with different Ryus as it is a placement thing to afford a better start to another action, be that grab, reverse elbow as it is to add more 'umph!' to a strike!

The hand low on a hip or high like in Kyokushin seems to serve as a 'statement' of difference to me, a hand held high would say to me a Kyokushin student, as much as a hand held low indicates shotokan or Wado ryu for example!

I've have to agree with guird about the grab aspect of the 'back hand' ...I've not seen an application of a grab for it!

The hand pulling back has always been taught to me as a way of adding power to a punch, primarily felt with performing a 'gyaku tsuki'!

It occurs to me that maybe this backward movement of the hand, sure, fits with the need of a modern stand up combat system, but its a hangover form when traditionally when learning to fight also meant grappling in combat.

Like a karatka differs form a Judoka (a wrestler differs form a boxer) a warrior fighting for his life would not simply stop because the other tripped on a branch he'd follow him down and finish the job on the ground.

A warrior fights on his feet as much as he fights on the ground!

What MMA today emulates!

[Wastelander]

Thanks for the replies.

It sounds like there are good reasons for chambering the hand. My concern is more that, when your hand is on your hip, it's not in a ready position to guard against an attack. My own experience when sparring is that, when I throw a punch at my partner, there's usually a punch coming at me as well. If my non-punching hand were pulled to my hip, I would be less able to defend against it.

I also look at other systems who don't chamber in that manner and wonder why some do and some don't but mostly I don't want to be knocked out because because my hand wasn't up guarding my face.

I realize there are some things that aren't readily apparent. Choy Li Fut for example looks kind of open at first but I've been told they're hard to get in on because of how they use their techniques. I figure karate must be similar but it's still a mystery to me.

Some may disagree with me, but I believe that you should NEVER pull your hand to a chambered position, UNLESS that pulling hand is pulling/controlling your opponent in some way. You are absolutely correct that pulling your hand to chamber will get you hit, but that is no longer the case if you are actually using it for something.

For example, let's say you are sparring someone, and you grab their left hand with your right, then pull it to your hip/side while punching them with your left hand. What opening do they have to strike you on your right side, where your hand is in chamber? The answer is; none! You are controlling the limb they would be hitting you with.

Kata is a memorization and visualization tool. If you aren't envisioning using that chambered hand for anything, then you will be more likely to use the position incorrectly, or not at all.

[ShoriKid]

Welcome to the forums! Stick around and you will find a ton of knowledge, plenty of differing opinions and a lot less flack for new folks than you will find in other locations.

You've gotten some great responses so far hansenator, and I'll add the following:

There are some things to remember with karate training. Line drills are foundational basics, not the finished product. Kata are road maps, solo drills that are whole chunks of fighting systems distilled down into pieces that you can apply in a lot of ways. Things should be getting put together in partnered practice, where a lot of time should be spent, with a connection back to the basics. I am questionable as a "traditional karate" in a lot of people's minds, so bare that in mind. Around these parts though, I don't think you will see a ton of problem with the above. More depth and explanation perhaps, but not tons of problems.

[DaveB]

The other side to this question is about fighting guards.

Strictly speaking karate doesn't have one!

Karate was designed for self defense and not dueling.

The nature of karate training, (ie big simple mechanically efficient movements to start then refining down to more nuanced technical elements) reflects 3 key facts about real violence.

1. Under pressure (adrenaline) refined movement goes out the window. Your big simple block and counter punch will keep you alive.

2. You will start in or find your way into all sorts of weird positions and angles during a violent encounter, and you need to be able to produce effective offensive and defensive techniques despite this.

As has been discussed, pulling the hand to the hip in basic drilling helps with awareness of the mechanisms and connections within your body, which down the line will help you understand how to yank someone off balance while maintaining your own, or how to convert a successful parry into a strike that can actually damage at close range.

3. Real fights don't have people square off in a fighting guard at a neat distance. They happen while you are talking or walking or whatever so your techniques have to come from the same nowhere that the attacker came from. This is both a physical and mental concern, but physically, like point 2, karate starts from neutrality and focusses on understanding how to move so that movement will be correct in any situation.

On the other hand, karateka do fight each other and always have. In that case, no guard becomes all guards since no limits are set to this aspect of the art.

The key message in all this is flexibility: adapt to what is happening.

Thus where you place your hands in a duel is based entirely on your understanding of the dueling environment and the strategy you wish to employ.

[yamesu]

The other side to this question is about fighting guards.

Strictly speaking karate doesn't have one!

Karate was designed for self defense and not dueling.

The nature of karate training, (ie big simple mechanically efficient movements to start then refining down to more nuanced technical elements) reflects 3 key facts about real violence.

1. Under pressure (adrenaline) refined movement goes out the window. Your big simple block and counter punch will keep you alive.

2. You will start in or find your way into all sorts of weird positions and angles during a violent encounter, and you need to be able to produce effective offensive and defensive techniques despite this.

As has been discussed, pulling the hand to the hip in basic drilling helps with awareness of the mechanisms and connections within your body, which down the line will help you understand how to yank someone off balance while maintaining your own, or how to convert a successful parry into a strike that can actually damage at close range.

3. Real fights don't have people square off in a fighting guard at a neat distance. They happen while you are talking or walking or whatever so your techniques have to come from the same nowhere that the attacker came from. This is both a physical and mental concern, but physically, like point 2, karate starts from neutrality and focusses on understanding how to move so that movement will be correct in any situation.

On the other hand, karateka do fight each other and always have. In that case, no guard becomes all guards since no limits are set to this aspect of the art.

The key message in all this is flexibility: adapt to what is happening.

Thus where you place your hands in a duel is based entirely on your understanding of the dueling environment and the strategy you wish to employ.

Great post!

[DaveB]

Thanks.

I don't mean to labor the point, but here's a quick example.

Say you block last second, a heavy straight punch. Your block was so tight that your fist is up by your cheek, similar to where it sits in a boxing guard.

Your block on the inside has your opponent wide open to a powerful counter with that same blocking hand. Do you think Anyone anywhere would ever drop their hand to their hip before throwing that counter punch?

There is no karate without the person, so there is no karate without the mental faculties needed to employ it.

Hikite is another option in this example, but it's not an absolute requirement. There are no absolute requirements except winning.

[TheRamsIX]

The other side to this question is about fighting guards.

Strictly speaking karate doesn't have one!

Karate was designed for self defense and not dueling.

The nature of karate training, (ie big simple mechanically efficient movements to start then refining down to more nuanced technical elements) reflects 3 key facts about real violence.

1. Under pressure (adrenaline) refined movement goes out the window. Your big simple block and counter punch will keep you alive.

2. You will start in or find your way into all sorts of weird positions and angles during a violent encounter, and you need to be able to produce effective offensive and defensive techniques despite this.

As has been discussed, pulling the hand to the hip in basic drilling helps with awareness of the mechanisms and connections within your body, which down the line will help you understand how to yank someone off balance while maintaining your own, or how to convert a successful parry into a strike that can actually damage at close range.

3. Real fights don't have people square off in a fighting guard at a neat distance. They happen while you are talking or walking or whatever so your techniques have to come from the same nowhere that the attacker came from. This is both a physical and mental concern, but physically, like point 2, karate starts from neutrality and focusses on understanding how to move so that movement will be correct in any situation.

On the other hand, karateka do fight each other and always have. In that case, no guard becomes all guards since no limits are set to this aspect of the art.

The key message in all this is flexibility: adapt to what is happening.

Thus where you place your hands in a duel is based entirely on your understanding of the dueling environment and the strategy you wish to employ.

Great post!

Seconded. A lot of good knowledge in there. Respect.