Your Opinion, Please.

[mal103]

I've got a few kids training in my Dojo's, I am leaning more towards making them wait longer between grades and making them skip gradings if they aren't really impressive, I also think that there should be a minimum age limit of gaining a Junior BB and Adult BB 12/16 maybe.

I think 2nd Dan is more about increased skills but think it should may be over 2 years - more 3. Think a Junior should grade again to Shodan at 16, this then doesn't allow for a 2nd Dan below 18.

3rd Dan is more about skills plus maturity so really can't see anyone under 25 being allowed to grade to 3rd. Just my opinion...

My boy graded to Shodan at 13 and I didn't see the point of him re-doing at 16 but now I can.

Back to this kid in the original video, she must have spent hours in the Dojo or training, I have seen lots of kids have their childhood stolen from them because they showed some skills at a sport and were then pushed and pushed, some willingly being pushed because they though it made their parents happy. A few later realise they missed on hours of fun, play, rest, TV, etc and are not thankful.

There is no way a child should know - or be taught the full applications to the Kata, it's even dodgy teaching this to teenagers and some adults...

[JohnASE]

Should age be a barrier to being awarded a black belt? Maybe some characteristics of children should be a barrier, but I don't think numerical age should be.

People's characteristics vary greatly and don't always correlate with age. Younger people aren't always less mature than older people. Younger people aren't always weaker than older people. Picking an age and saying everyone under it is incapable of being worthy of a black belt would not be accurate.

I understand that in groups, we need to abide by generalizations that will not be fair to all people. You need to be 21 to buy alcohol. You need to be 16 to drive a car. But, I believe that awarding a black belt is a more personal experience, where the tester knows each candidate intimately, making it much easier to judge worthiness individually than it would be for the department of motor vehicles or a bartender.

Personally, that's what I believe, but I get that it makes sense to have general policies to keep things uniform, especially in larger organizations. Maybe the greater good is served by a policy that reduces the chance that an undeserving person might be awarded a black belt. I'd just hate to see exceptional kids held back.

[sensei8]

Had she not have been wearing a gi and a belt...

What would've been your opinion then??

Judging a book by it's cover, i.e., it's outer appearance, can be often quite one sided.

[DWx]

The question of child or young blackbelt rears it's head fairly regularly on KF... (In fact I think it was a similar topic that prompted me to sign up to the site). My answer to this topic is pretty much exactly what John has said:

Should age be a barrier to being awarded a black belt? Maybe some characteristics of children should be a barrier, but I don't think numerical age should be.

People's characteristics vary greatly and don't always correlate with age. Younger people aren't always less mature than older people. Younger people aren't always weaker than older people. Picking an age and saying everyone under it is incapable of being worthy of a black belt would not be accurate.

I understand that in groups, we need to abide by generalizations that will not be fair to all people. You need to be 21 to buy alcohol. You need to be 16 to drive a car. But, I believe that awarding a black belt is a more personal experience, where the tester knows each candidate intimately, making it much easier to judge worthiness individually than it would be for the department of motor vehicles or a bartender.

Personally, that's what I believe, but I get that it makes sense to have general policies to keep things uniform, especially in larger organizations. Maybe the greater good is served by a policy that reduces the chance that an undeserving person might be awarded a black belt. I'd just hate to see exceptional kids held back.

I'm a tad biased maybe because I received my 1st dan when I was 14. As John has said above, to base the decision on whether a candidate has the right characteristics and physical ability can be judged on a case by case basis and one would hope that the teacher who has trained them since day 1 would be able to assess that

People age physically and emotionally at different rates and I think it is completely feasible that an under 18 could demonstrate maturity and the necessary physical attributes.

If maturity is to be a criteria, many over 18s would fail this component. Likewise if we are to discuss physical strength would you deny a blackbelt to someone who was older and not able to move as fast or withstand as much impact? Or how about the more petite females?

At the end of the day it is just a title and another step. In the real world little changes due to the colour of the belt tied round one's waist. If I showed up to training next week with a white belt my knowledge and experience obtained so far wouldn't magically be erased and I don't gain anything special by wrapping a black belt around my waist either.

[wayneshin]

I normally stay out of this debate because some have very strong views but I have a slightly different perspective to offer. We now have in our organisation 4 twenty somethings all of whom started at 4 years old and all of whom received their Junior Black Belts very young. (10 or 11 from memory). In each case they are very highly skilled martial artists and contribute enormously to our organisation.

Children (and adults) need goals and achievement to stay motivated and while it is only speculation I suspect that if we did not award Junior Black belts some or all of the 4 would not be with us now.

[Harkon72]

As I have said in other posts, our club does not give out coloured belts. Our members are graded but it is not apparent what grades they have, we all wear white belts. The Dan grades wear hakama and you cannot see their belts. As Sensei Halsall said; "Gareth, I don't need to see your belt, I can tell by looking at your movement what level you are at." I thanked a visiting senior Aikidoka for his instruction after a course I attended, I called him "Sensei", he smiled as he showed me the white belt that he wore, "I'm not your Sensei, I'm a beginner in life as you are; we all help each other here."

[ineluki]

She may not have the maturity of that of an adult but then again the do these?

Do others?

IMHO a lot of MAists deceive themselves by thinking that adults are automatically mature and that examiners are really good at recognising it.

- McDojos are run by adults

- all those association squabbles are the work of adults, including high grades "Masters"

[AikiGuy]

I can see the point of those who are saying that some exceptional students might actually deserve a BB sooner than most. But I think that's only true for some things like basic technique, form, athleticism, and adaptability.

But there's more to being a BB and some of those things only come with age and maturity. What about physical strength, judgment, ability to defend others, ability to teach others (including adults), and an understanding of the legal ramifications of one's actions? One could argue that an exceptional 14 year old might have some of these, but a 7 year old could never have even half of these qualities. This is why I could never award a small child a BB.

[Spartacus Maximus]

It is my opinion and understanding that someone with a shodan must demonstrate the following skills:

1. A firm grasp of all basic techniques and fundamental principles

2. Knowledge of technique applications and function.

3. Demonstrate correct focus to produce power in basic techniques at least somewhat consistently

4. Mental concentration and a good moral character.

The first three can possibly be developed by adolescents and maybe children as young as ten. The fourth condition however, is much much more difficult and in my experience impossible for anyone under 16-18years old.

An entire university library's worth of research can be found to show that a person still is not mentally fully mature until the age of 20. 10-12year olds are still very much children. A student that age cannot be expected to be able to concentrate on his own training without any support. It is also too much to expect him to have the maturity to judge and reflect on his own actions. Even teenagers are still impulsive and mentally immature.

A child maybe a phenomenal athlete and very adept at remembering physical movements but I do not believe their skills are beyond a very superficial physical level. That is why I adhere to the idea that shodan should not be used to evaluate the level of anyone under 16-18. I also think individual personality plays a significant part in a students grasp of martial skills and concepts.

[Melau]

It is my opinion and understanding that someone with a shodan must demonstrate the following skills:

1. A firm grasp of all basic techniques and fundamental principles

2. Knowledge of technique applications and function.

3. Demonstrate correct focus to produce power in basic techniques at least somewhat consistently

4. Mental concentration and a good moral character.

The first three can possibly be developed by adolescents and maybe children as young as ten. The fourth condition however, is much much more difficult and in my experience impossible for anyone under 16-18years old.

An entire university library's worth of research can be found to show that a person still is not mentally fully mature until the age of 20. 10-12year olds are still very much children. A student that age cannot be expected to be able to concentrate on his own training without any support. It is also too much to expect him to have the maturity to judge and reflect on his own actions. Even teenagers are still impulsive and mentally immature.

A child maybe a phenomenal athlete and very adept at remembering physical movements but I do not believe their skills are beyond a very superficial physical level. That is why I adhere to the idea that shodan should not be used to evaluate the level of anyone under 16-18. I also think individual personality plays a significant part in a students grasp of martial skills and concepts.

I fully agree with this. Also I believe that a BB should be able to keep a relative calm mental state when sparring / under pressure / when losing for instance. This is just something that is difficult to achieve for younger individuals, it is something that comes with experience.