Your Opinion, Please.

[sensei8]

For just a moment...

Forget, if it's possible to do so, that she's a child!

Forget, if it's possible to do so, that she's a black belt!

Forget, if it's possible to do so, that she's wearing a gi!

Rate her Kata execution!

I've heard so many times over the years that "She's/he's a child playing...she/he was performing memorized movements...how cute" because, for me, that argument's mute, because all of us that are training in a style that teaches Kata's, perform memorized movements AS ADULTS!!

Was she performing a Kata or was she executing a Kata? Imho, they're not the same! Performing a Kata means that the movements are dead! To execute a Kata means that the movements are alive!

[sperki]

Sensei8, interesting idea. She looked like a robot going through it. But it was impressive, more so because she's 7. Does she grasp all of the bunkai? Maybe not. Is she mature enough to decide when to use it? Probably, most 7 year olds know hitting isn't acceptable. We all know adults that are quite immature. Unfortunately that doesn't stop them from "earning" blackbelts. Would I want her as my sensei? Not yet, but I bet I could learn something from her.

[sensei8]

Sensei8, interesting idea. She looked like a robot going through it. But it was impressive, more so because she's 7. Does she grasp all of the bunkai? Maybe not. Is she mature enough to decide when to use it? Probably, most 7 year olds know hitting isn't acceptable. We all know adults that are quite immature. Unfortunately that doesn't stop them from "earning" blackbelts. Would I want her as my sensei? Not yet, but I bet I could learn something from her.

YES!! Solid post!!

[Harkon72]

I totally agree. I have made clear how I feel a few times on this form about child Dan grades. Simply, it's a paradox. To me a martial artist is a warrior, he does not fight for points or belts or trophies, those guys are sports men. To a martial artist, fighting is the last option but the first in defence of the innocent. You can't put a child in the same mind set as an adult who's skill in combat has been honed to expert level. Grades and titles mean nothing, martial arts were made to offer survival, comparing them in the mind of a child to that of a warrior is invalid. The girl may be skilled but she is working on a different level, the physical appearance of what she is doing does not reflect this. I remember Shaun Thornton (John Wayne) saying that he wouldn't fight until he was ready to kill, that proves that he had the warrior mind. I have fought for my life, it is not a trivial thing. Comparing a child's pastime to a real combat art is a delusion, and a common marketing tool in so many dojos, who, when you look at them objectively don't teach martial arts at all.

[Shizentai]

Okay, I have a few things to say here. I apologize for dredging up old posts, but please bear with me.

This little girl's form is almost perfect, she's a good karateka. That said, she is a child. This video reminds me of Japanese musical child prodigies that came to the world's view back in the 80's. They are children, they are brilliant, but their art is all they seem to know. China is a country that is producing large numbers of very gifted athletes, and they are again very talented. But at what cost? There have been reports that these children, as young as 3 or 4 are taught that failure in form is not an option. While this child has a Dan grade; please remember that the word "Dan" is Japanese for "Man". She may be brilliant, but in many senses of the concept, she is not a martial artist.

So it seems to me that there may be some Japanese language confusion here. In Japanese, there are a lot of homophones that are written as totally different kanji (chinese characters), that carry with them very different meanings. The kanji for "dan" denoting black belt ranks in various Japanese martial arts, looks like this: 段, and it just means "step" or "stair" as in the Japanese word for stairway "kaidan" (階段). There is not even a particle in that character that means either "man" or "adult" (it breaks down into: "table" "also" "one" and "of"). On the other hand, the sound "dan" in other contexts can mean "man," but it is a totally different word. It looks like this: 男, and is pronounced "otoko" on its own, but when paired with other characters, takes the sound of "dan," as in "danshi" (男子) meaning "young man." Even in this context though, that kanji for "dan" does not mean "adult," that's "otona" (大人) in Japanese (literally "big person").

Therefore, the kanji for "shodan" have nothing to do with the age or sex of the ranked person. It just means "first rank".

Anyway, sorry to use kanji on here. I know you guys don't care for it, but it's hard for me to explain without showing them to you. Just in case your browsers don't allow eastern languages, here are links to the two kanji in question:

"dan" meaning "step" or "grade" (as in "shodan"):

http://jisho.org/kanji/details/%E6%AE%B5

"dan" meaning "man" or "boy"

http://jisho.org/kanji/details/%E7%94%B7

Okay, now that that tangent is out of my system, on to more recent posts and the actual topic of this thread!

Sensei8, interesting idea. She looked like a robot going through it. But it was impressive, more so because she's 7. Does she grasp all of the bunkai? Maybe not. Is she mature enough to decide when to use it? Probably, most 7 year olds know hitting isn't acceptable. We all know adults that are quite immature. Unfortunately that doesn't stop them from "earning" blackbelts. Would I want her as my sensei? Not yet, but I bet I could learn something from her.

YES!! Solid post!!

This may seem like a cop-out answer, but I think it all depends on what "black belt" means to your style as to whether or not kids should be able to attain the rank.

I get the sense from a lot of people that the rank of shodan in the West is invariably tied to teaching responsibilities. If this is the case in your dojo, then I think it makes total sense why you wouldn't want to promote a child to this rank. However, this is simply not the case in Japan, or at least anywhere I've trained. Shodans may be asked to lead warm-ups from time to time, or perhaps be the club president in a college club or some such (though usually only if it is a REALLY small club), but generally speaking they are not handed responsibility of teaching at that rank. In fact, in order to be certified as an instructor in the Japan Karate Association, you must participate in special training and pass special exams. There are also 4 levels of instructor, with different responsibilities and different age and rank requirements for each level. Folks aren't even allowed to take the lowest of these exams until they are at least nidan and over 20 years of age. I don't know if this little girl is JKA (edit: I checked, she is JKA), but my sense is that other organizations have similar de-couplings of what it means to be a blackbelt and what it means to be an instructor. The rank of shodan for many simply means "can proficiently perform any basic techniques." This of course means bunkai as well as kata. Basics and some form or randori or sparring should also be good (which we haven't seen from this little one so I cannot judge).

I myself have only met one 7-year-old black belt. She deserved it in my opinion. On her test, there were no kids her size, so she had to spar with the next smallest kid, a boy who was 14 testing for shodan as well. As soon as the match began, he rushed in and she threw him on his back punching to face with excellent control. Ippon. Her kata was very good too. ...The most special thing about that girl though, was revealed to me in something she said to me once. She was usually a very pleasant child, but one day when I walked into the dojo, she had a big scowl on her face. I asked her "What's wrong?" She responded, "No one in the kids' class is serious when they train. I don't know if they think it's just a game or sports or something. It's not." Pretty wise. Just a thought.

What does "sho-dan" mean to me? To me it means what the kanji read: "first step." In any scenario, it is a very important step, but in the end it is just the beginning.

[Harkon72]

You can look at the context of a dojo with regards to what the term shodan means, fair enough. You can give validation to a child's achievement in a martial art styled exercise, I have no problem with that. The way I see it is that the concept of attaining a level of proficiency in a martial art is lost. As I have tried to convey, you cannot compare a 7 year old child, however skilled to a 16 stone 30 year old combat artist who has had real combat experience, and I'm not talking for points; the context of their mind set and application is a world apart. One is a child, the other has fought in harm's way. For some of us, martial arts are not a sport, they are not a hobby, we don't care about grades or trophies. If you want your picture in the news paper, go to your local belt factory if you can afford it. My Sensei said to me on my first lesson with him; "So you have a black belt in Karate? Congratulations! Now I know that you have been taught to attack and defend in a prescribed way. Here, we have no form, no stance, no set attacks and responses, only principals which you will learn to apply differently each time with what you are given. There are no visible grades here, please leave your ego by the door." That is why I consider my Sensei's Aikido to be a real martial art.

[Rateh]

As I have tried to convey, you cannot compare a 7 year old child, however skilled to a 16 stone 30 year old combat artist who has had real combat experience, and I'm not talking for points; the context of their mind set and application is a world apart. One is a child, the other has fought in harm's way.

TBH I don't think most of us here who have black belts are 16 stone 30 year olds with combat experience. Nor have we all fought in harms way.

[Harkon72]

The point I am trying to make is the chasm in the conceptual difference between a child Dan grade and an exponent of martial arts that has some idea of what the roots of the martial arts were about. There are some of us that see them as a skill for survival, not just a pastime or a way to lose weight.

[Shizentai]

You can look at the context of a dojo with regards to what the term shodan means, fair enough. You can give validation to a child's achievement in a martial art styled exercise, I have no problem with that. The way I see it is that the concept of attaining a level of proficiency in a martial art is lost. As I have tried to convey, you cannot compare a 7 year old child, however skilled to a 16 stone 30 year old combat artist who has had real combat experience, and I'm not talking for points; the context of their mind set and application is a world apart. One is a child, the other has fought in harm's way. For some of us, martial arts are not a sport, they are not a hobby, we don't care about grades or trophies. If you want your picture in the news paper, go to your local belt factory if you can afford it. My Sensei said to me on my first lesson with him; "So you have a black belt in Karate? Congratulations! Now I know that you have been taught to attack and defend in a prescribed way. Here, we have no form, no stance, no set attacks and responses, only principals which you will learn to apply differently each time with what you are given. There are no visible grades here, please leave your ego by the door." That is why I consider my Sensei's Aikido to be a real martial art.

I think I get what you're trying to say here. I truly respect people who know what they know through life experience, and that is indeed something that children do not have, life experience. I also feel as though it is not a good idea to place a child, regardless of his or her skill, in a position of authority over adults in a martial art, because many of them haven't even learned to value what can be gained by the life experiences of others yet. So what if shodan means whatever it means, kids are kids, adults are adults. I actually think we are in agreement on these points.

I am not sure that we agree on one point however: that children can be martial artists

As I have tried to convey, you cannot compare a 7 year old child, however skilled to a 16 stone 30 year old combat artist who has had real combat experience, and I'm not talking for points; the context of their mind set and application is a world apart. One is a child, the other has fought in harm's way.

Yes, I also agree that those are two different types of people, but who is more likely to be attacked while walking down the street? 18 stone man or 7-year-old girl? Isn't it more important that we foster a good mind-set in the young, the small, and the vulnerable to enable them to protect themselves in the event of conflict? Such things I believe cannot just wait to instill in them till later. By saying kids are incapable, we lower our expectations of them, and thus they have no way of learning to become competent karate-ka at an age where it could be utterly essential.

Right now, I am at my heaviest in my life. I am a whopping 8 stone 28-year-old woman. I am average height for a woman... in Japan. In the US I'm smaller than most. I will never be a 16-stone 30-year-old man, but like my more sizable dojo mates I am on the path that some would say qualifies me as a martial artist.

Though I have never been to war, I was bullied as a kid before I trained. I still have a scar on my hand from where my left ring-finger was de-gloved by a boy's shoe. Since starting karate at 14 I have been confronted on the street by a man with a weapon who wanted to take my money, I've been attacked a house party, I've had a man try to pin my arms in a bar and do, who knows what (none of those folks got past their initial attacks, so thankfully I'll never know). I have gotten through all of it so far just fine >knocks on wood< relying on my tiny, young, female self, but what's more so than that, by relying on my training. Apparently that was enough. In my home dojo no one said to me "you can't."

In my opinion, people learning how to end physical conflict with their training, genuinely and earnestly are martial artists, regardless of age, sex, weight, perceived toughness, etc. Harkon, I really like what your sensei said about leaving your ranks and preconceptions at the door. I think your sensei must be quite wise. We are all on the same road after all. Can't we just turn off the pedometers for a little while without getting lost?

[Harkon72]

I'm lucky, over the years most of my Sensei have been honest with me. I know that some martial art training can be good for most people, even to the extent that they can defend themselves and have confidence while dealing with confrontation. But what saddens me is the false super hero mentality taught by some martial art schools. They instil a fantasy mind set in their students that they can take on anyone. I had one gentleman say to me after he had trained Krav Maga for three months that he was "Street Lethal" and no man or street thug could touch him. I think he needs a serious reality check, the general public are not idiots when it comes to confrontation, some even excel at it. When I walk after dark in our town, I keep a low profile, I don't think I'm ten men. I've seen Skinhead boot parties, they are an ugly experience. Sensei, tell your students to avoid such areas, you will never gain the super human prowess that some schools of martial arts seem to promise. As for children and young people, teach them to run away and seek help. I have turned away from competitive martial arts, I now see them as sport and combat themed games. I have a profound spiritual aspect to my Budo, I respect, I adapt, I prevail.