Karate defence against aggressive?

[TheGrim123321]

One time to foot ball team captain charged at me, I simply front kicked him in the mouth.

[Spartacus Maximus]

A football charge or tackle is probably the easiest attack to see coming and counter or just avoid. Unless it done from behind and by surprise. The simplest counter is a well timed kick to the head or face as soon as the attacker lowers his head to charge and come into kicking range. A head grab and knee into the face or solar plexus is also good if done as soon as he is within range.

With a frontal charge/tackle it is also possible to side step and use the momentum of the attacker to trip/throw directing him into the nearest hard object such as a wall. Very painful and requires very little effort besides timing and that is easy to get with practise. Even grade school kids do this to each other.

Besides that, a headlong charge or tackle as done in football(aimed usually at the lower body waist/legs) is really not an intelligent fighting technique. Once started it is nearly impossible to stop midway to change moves or even see what the target will do because the head is down and tucked in.

[sensei8]

A football charge or tackle is probably the easiest attack to see coming and counter or just avoid. Unless it done from behind and by surprise. The simplest counter is a well timed kick to the head or face as soon as the attacker lowers his head to charge and come into kicking range. A head grab and knee into the face or solar plexus is also good if done as soon as he is within range.

With a frontal charge/tackle it is also possible to side step and use the momentum of the attacker to trip/throw directing him into the nearest hard object such as a wall. Very painful and requires very little effort besides timing and that is easy to get with practise. Even grade school kids do this to each other.

Besides that, a headlong charge or tackle as done in football(aimed usually at the lower body waist/legs) is really not an intelligent fighting technique. Once started it is nearly impossible to stop midway to change moves or even see what the target will do because the head is down and tucked in.

Seems to be a very effective tactic in MMA/UFC and the like. Why do you think that this is true??

[guird]

A football charge or tackle is probably the easiest attack to see coming and counter or just avoid. ...

Seems to be a very effective tactic in MMA/UFC and the like. Why do you think that this is true??

well, not exactly. I rarely, if ever, see someone charge in from across the ring. They usually distract high or slip a punch and then shoot low from nearby. A double-leg takeown isn't exactly the same as a football tackle once contact is made either.

[Spartacus Maximus]

That is exactly my point. The tackle is an offense tactic made for football wich is a sport and has nothing to do with martial arts. It works in football because it was made for football.

It is similar to the shooting technique used in cage sport fighting but it is not the same thing. Cage fighting also has certain rules that determine and limit possible countering techniques.

I just gave examples from what I was taught and shown by my teacher(s) and from my experience as the unofficial punching bag that I was throughout my school years.

As for every counter, timing and optimum range are the most important factor of success. Notice how many times I mention these in my examples of counters.

I would be interested in Sensei8's ideas on possible counters.

[sensei8]

These guys are right.

Although I am sure Sensei8 means "controlled aggression"

Aggression by itself is too emotional, therefore as martial artists we need to be on top of it.

The Japanese have an expression called "sente" which means to have the initiative.

In true budo - if you do not think of yourself as the winner before you engage in conflict, you have already lost.

K.

To the bold type above...

Absolutely!! Everything depends on Mizu No Kokoro and Tsuki No Kokoro, and to lack these, then emotions take over, and that's not good.

[sensei8]

That is exactly my point. The tackle is an offense tactic made for football wich is a sport and has nothing to do with martial arts. It works in football because it was made for football.

It is similar to the shooting technique used in cage sport fighting but it is not the same thing. Cage fighting also has certain rules that determine and limit possible countering techniques.

I just gave examples from what I was taught and shown by my teacher(s) and from my experience as the unofficial punching bag that I was throughout my school years.

As for every counter, timing and optimum range are the most important factor of success. Notice how many times I mention these in my examples of counters.

I would be interested in Sensei8's ideas on possible counters.

While the spear/tackle can be effective, it's, like every MA technique known on the planet, not a guarantee each and every time. Parameters are way to askew in the tackle/spear to say that it's effective each and every attempt.

Having said that, I'm a firm believer in the sprawl as a counter to the tackle/spear. I've seen, and I've controlled the volume released in any given spear/tackle. But, if the sprawl isn't properly managed, it's just another MA technique that's subjected to failure; the sprawl's ineffective and the proponent of the sprawl will be simply just ran over by a well planted tackle/spear.

I'm a proponent of striking, and that's Shindokan, after all, we're 85% hands. I believe in transitional movements through and through. Going off-line, at the very last moment, striking targets without any prejudice and ambiguity, nor any reservation! I've written an KF article titled, "Close Range Space Management" that speaks toward transitioning from one space to another. In that transitioning, one must allow opponent to become totally committed to their attack before transitioning to another space; and if I'm not there, then neither is the tackle/spear. Timing and focus, while using ones hands to deflect opponents motion; takes nerves of steel to NOT move until the very last second, to draw opponent in.

Nonetheless, counter strikes against the tackle/spear can leave one very open and vulnerable if one isn't right on target. Also, if one's caught totally surprised, then enjoy the ride to the ground, and regroup there, if possible. Fakes and feints are just that, and if the fake and feint helps them close the distance so that you can be tackled, then I say, transition off-line, if it's still a possibility.

Like I said, nothing in the MA is guaranteed, and even the most experienced can be caught off guard and driven to the ground by anyone.

I believe wholeheartedly in transitioning off-line and sprawling as a counter to the tackle/spear. I've done it, and this is what Shindokan teaches...transitioning to gain the upper-hand.

[guird]

While the spear/tackle can be effective, it's, like every MA technique known on the planet, not a guarantee each and every time. Parameters are way to askew in the tackle/spear to say that it's effective each and every attempt.

Having said that, I'm a firm believer in the sprawl as a counter to the tackle/spear. I've seen, and I've controlled the volume released in any given spear/tackle. But, if the sprawl isn't properly managed, it's just another MA technique that's subjected to failure; the sprawl's ineffective and the proponent of the sprawl will be simply just ran over by a well planted tackle/spear.

I'm a proponent of striking, and that's Shindokan, after all, we're 85% hands. I believe in transitional movements through and through. Going off-line, at the very last moment, striking targets without any prejudice and ambiguity, nor any reservation! I've written an KF article titled, "Close Range Space Management" that speaks toward transitioning from one space to another. In that transitioning, one must allow opponent to become totally committed to their attack before transitioning to another space; and if I'm not there, then neither is the tackle/spear. Timing and focus, while using ones hands to deflect opponents motion; takes nerves of steel to NOT move until the very last second, to draw opponent in.

Nonetheless, counter strikes against the tackle/spear can leave one very open and vulnerable if one isn't right on target. Also, if one's caught totally surprised, then enjoy the ride to the ground, and regroup there, if possible. Fakes and feints are just that, and if the fake and feint helps them close the distance so that you can be tackled, then I say, transition off-line, if it's still a possibility.

Like I said, nothing in the MA is guaranteed, and even the most experienced can be caught off guard and driven to the ground by anyone.

I believe wholeheartedly in transitioning off-line and sprawling as a counter to the tackle/spear. I've done it, and this is what Shindokan teaches...transitioning to gain the upper-hand.

I think we may be thinking of different tackles.

The spear tackles you see in football seem to be aimed too high to sprawl out of, The whole point of a sprawl being to get your legs out of reach and put the weight of your body on theirs. There isn't much point if they're not reaching for your legs and their body is too high to push down on.

If you google 'football tackle' you'll mostly see people grabbing at or above the waist. If you google a rugby tackle you'll see more people grabbing legs, so a sprawl makes more sense against one of those.

[sensei8]

Yes, I see what you're saying. I speak about spears/tackles that are waist or lower. Football tackles, up high, we treat them not as a spear/tackle, but more as a "rush/blitz".

Still, transitioning off-line, as we are trained to do so in Shindokan, is how we address anyone who's 'bumrushing'...strikes and the like are our preferred tactics PROVIDING the element are favored while transitioning off-line as a counter.

Any kicks we might consider are aimed waist down to upset the base.

Again, I've great confidence in tactics taught in Shindokan and of myself, but nothing is guaranteed because any strange thing can happen.

[jaypo]

If you're talking about "bumrusing", then I'd change my strategy. I'd still focus on using angles, but I'd switch to a more offensive set. If you have time to throw an attack, I'd surprise the attacker on his way in- be it a kick or punch (again I reference Lyoto Machida, UFC fighter- he does this to perfection). For someone rushing in like that, a low kick may do the trick because it will draw his attention to a low point (and maybe open an upper strike), and because it will disrupt his objective which is to rush and tackle you. A quick strike using his forward momentum could end the attack. Otherwise, defensively, your best bet is to do the old Myiga Do defense- "Not be there"! Use your movement to get off line and let his momentum force him to commit until he is off balance. Then, you have a lot of options!

I always try to get either to the side or behind my opponents when they attack. (I guess it's a mix of my Karate with some Aikido principals) It confuses them, but it opens up a lot of easy targets. And when someone bumrushes you, if they're very aggressive, usually, they have the tendency to be overcommitted and off balance. That's when it becomes like shooting fish in a barrel!