The Meaning of Rank

[cardinal95]

Are you concerned that your training will suffer if you stick to your opinion on this student? If that isn't the case then I wouldn't worry...I'd just let my opinion be known to Sensei and then let Sensei decide how he wants to handle things. As long as everyone can respectfully agree to disagree and can train and be trained to the best of their ability then all is good...I think...

Suffering may be too strong of a word, but I think everyone's training has been impacted. There is too much emphasis on ego and positive reinforcement than on the actual training in my opinion, which is resulting in other student's frustration, lack of confidence for some, over confidence for others. Its impacted the dynamics of the dojo which in turn is impacting the learning environment for others (including myself). Does that make sense?

[jaypo]

I have mixed feelings about this topic. On one hand, if the goal of your style is to make the best fighter, then it would stand to reason that the best fighter should have a high rank. However, as you mentioned, this guy is the best fighter mainly because of his physical gifts, not a result of what your style has taught him. But if he were in a system that promotes based on tournament wins accumulated using 3 moves he learned from that style, he could possibly move up higher than someone training for years in the same system that may not spar as well.

However, the goal of most martial arts is to teach the knowledge and techniques that make a person a better fighter using those techniques. So it would stand to reason that those that display the things that are taught in that system should be considered "better" at that art. For example, I'm a Nidan in a Shorin Ryu based art, and I feel very confident that I could walk into a certain local Tae Kwon Do school and out point or win a fight against someone with the same rank in their style (because I've done it in my own dojo with one of their Nidans!). But that doesn't mean that I deserve a Nidan rank in that Tae Kwon Do school. I can beat their guy because I have better movement, angles, and rely on different techniques than they're used to. I don't do many high kicks, and I don't spin that often. I don't know a single one of their forms or the applications from them. So even though I could beat their fighter, I am not a better "Tae Kwon Do" martial artist. So I wouldn't expect to walk in and expect a high rank.

Now, being a Nidan in another style shows that I (or anyone else) have put in the time training and learning a lot of basics (there are only so many ways a body can throw a strike!) and applications. So I would expect that if I walked into that same school at the same time as some inexperienced dude off the street, I'd advance in rank at a lot faster rate than he.

The other part I have mixed feelings about is promoting based on the student's abilities compared to everyone else. I personally am not very flexible, and my athleticism has declined substantially in my 40 years. I have had knee replacement surgery, so that limits certain things that I can do. I am also less coordinated in my left arm and leg than my right. And all of those physical factors affect my katas, my kihon, and my sparring. However, it doesn't affect my knowledge. I may not be able to execute a left leg round kick as pretty as one of my lower belts, but I probably can use that same kick more effectively and with a lot more control than that student. And I may be able to figure out and teach a certain application of that kick better than that lower belt as well, which is what differentiates my rank from my that student's rank. That student may look better doing a kata with a side kick with the left leg because they have better flexibility and coordination on that side, but I can apply it better in a real situation because of experience and knowledge.

[cardinal95]

I have mixed feelings about this topic. On one hand, if the goal of your style is to make the best fighter, then it would stand to reason that the best fighter should have a high rank. However, as you mentioned, this guy is the best fighter mainly because of his physical gifts, not a result of what your style has taught him. But if he were in a system that promotes based on tournament wins accumulated using 3 moves he learned from that style, he could possibly move up higher than someone training for years in the same system that may not spar as well.

However, the goal of most martial arts is to teach the knowledge and techniques that make a person a better fighter using those techniques. So it would stand to reason that those that display the things that are taught in that system should be considered "better" at that art. For example, I'm a Nidan in a Shorin Ryu based art, and I feel very confident that I could walk into a certain local Tae Kwon Do school and out point or win a fight against someone with the same rank in their style (because I've done it in my own dojo with one of their Nidans!). But that doesn't mean that I deserve a Nidan rank in that Tae Kwon Do school. I can beat their guy because I have better movement, angles, and rely on different techniques than they're used to. I don't do many high kicks, and I don't spin that often. I don't know a single one of their forms or the applications from them. So even though I could beat their fighter, I am not a better "Tae Kwon Do" martial artist. So I wouldn't expect to walk in and expect a high rank.

Now, being a Nidan in another style shows that I (or anyone else) have put in the time training and learning a lot of basics (there are only so many ways a body can throw a strike!) and applications. So I would expect that if I walked into that same school at the same time as some inexperienced dude off the street, I'd advance in rank at a lot faster rate than he.

The other part I have mixed feelings about is promoting based on the student's abilities compared to everyone else. I personally am not very flexible, and my athleticism has declined substantially in my 40 years. I have had knee replacement surgery, so that limits certain things that I can do. I am also less coordinated in my left arm and leg than my right. And all of those physical factors affect my katas, my kihon, and my sparring. However, it doesn't affect my knowledge. I may not be able to execute a left leg round kick as pretty as one of my lower belts, but I probably can use that same kick more effectively and with a lot more control than that student. And I may be able to figure out and teach a certain application of that kick better than that lower belt as well, which is what differentiates my rank from my that student's rank. That student may look better doing a kata with a side kick with the left leg because they have better flexibility and coordination on that side, but I can apply it better in a real situation because of experience and knowledge.

Jaypo, you very clearly just described my situation to a tee! I couldn't agree more with your analysis of this situation! So well put.

[DaveB]

I guess I'm hesitant to talk to him about this specifically because he knows my situation, my goals etc and is catering the training so that I reach my goals. Maybe he is doing this with the other student as well (without my knowledge), but from the outside perspective it just doesn't seem that way. I hate these kind of politics in a dojo, its so off-putting and it takes focus of what is important...its just very hard to focus on yourself and what you are doing when there seems to be some sort of measurement/comparison with everyone else. I simply don't remember it being this way, I remember training as hard as possible to exceed my personal best, and then rank would come.

You've given a perfect example of the downside of having rank at all, and assistant instructors.

I have to say, you state that you hate politics, but with your questioning and back room discussions about another student you are likely creating an atmosphere of political discontent.

In life we are always compared to those around us. Suck it up and worry about your own development before your dojo falls apart in a quagmire of jealousy and bad feelings.

Your teacher either knows what he's doing or he doesn't. If he does stay, if not go. Fact is, you won't know for sure until you and this guy are years down the line, so you either deal and enjoy your training or go with not a word said (if you care about the School I mean). But the kind of griping you are doing will kill your school if unchecked.

[DaveB]

I guess I'm hesitant to talk to him about this specifically because he knows my situation, my goals etc and is catering the training so that I reach my goals. Maybe he is doing this with the other student as well (without my knowledge), but from the outside perspective it just doesn't seem that way. I hate these kind of politics in a dojo, its so off-putting and it takes focus of what is important...its just very hard to focus on yourself and what you are doing when there seems to be some sort of measurement/comparison with everyone else. I simply don't remember it being this way, I remember training as hard as possible to exceed my personal best, and then rank would come.

You've given a perfect example of the downside of having rank at all, and assistant instructors.

I have to say, you state that you hate politics, but with your questioning and back room discussions about another student you are likely creating an atmosphere of political discontent.

In life we are always compared to those around us. Suck it up and worry about your own development before your dojo falls apart in a quagmire of jealousy and bad feelings.

Your teacher either knows what he's doing or he doesn't. If he does stay, if not go. Fact is, you won't know for sure until you and this guy are years down the line, so you either deal and enjoy your training or go with not a word said (if you care about the School I mean). But the kind of griping you are doing will kill your school if unchecked.

[cardinal95]

I guess I'm hesitant to talk to him about this specifically because he knows my situation, my goals etc and is catering the training so that I reach my goals. Maybe he is doing this with the other student as well (without my knowledge), but from the outside perspective it just doesn't seem that way. I hate these kind of politics in a dojo, its so off-putting and it takes focus of what is important...its just very hard to focus on yourself and what you are doing when there seems to be some sort of measurement/comparison with everyone else. I simply don't remember it being this way, I remember training as hard as possible to exceed my personal best, and then rank would come.

You've given a perfect example of the downside of having rank at all, and assistant instructors.

I have to say, you state that you hate politics, but with your questioning and back room discussions about another student you are likely creating an atmosphere of political discontent.

In life we are always compared to those around us. Suck it up and worry about your own development before your dojo falls apart in a quagmire of jealousy and bad feelings.

Your teacher either knows what he's doing or he doesn't. If he does stay, if not go. Fact is, you won't know for sure until you and this guy are years down the line, so you either deal and enjoy your training or go with not a word said (if you care about the School I mean). But the kind of griping you are doing will kill your school if unchecked.

DavidB, definitely a different perspective which is appreciated and noted. I have trained with this dojo (and only this dojo) for two decades, I have considered branching out since these are fairly new developments I am trying to sort out.

[DaveB]

I had a brief skim of your blog. From the little I've read I would trust your sensei.

[cardinal95]

I had a brief skim of your blog. From the little I've read I would trust your sensei.

He does often have those "Mr. Miyagi" moments.

[sensei8]

I found myself pondering the meaning of rank this past week and was hoping to obtain some further insight from all of you brilliant karateka.

There a few of us preparing for promotions in about a month and I heard something from one of my fellow assistant instructors that I had not heard before. We were discussing another student whom we both did not feel is ready to promote due to lack of knowledge/practice as outlined on that kyu's rank sheet. When this instructor told our Sensei that she did not think this student was ready, he replied "he's ready." The student is the best fighter in the class (there are only a handful of us) and is mid-ranked. From my perspective, the student's kata's and basics and dojo etiquette are sloppy despite that his conditioning and fighting are above par for his rank. This assistant instructor explained to me, well people get promoted for lots of reasons other than what is on the sheet. This is not sitting well with me.

Given, this is my first year back after a long hiatus, but I don't recall this to be a factor. Either you know whats on the sheet and execute to the best of your ability or your don't. I am also weary of promoting students because they are good fighters, I don't believe that fighting and rank should have a positive correlation (it never did before in my dojo). In talking to Sensei over the past year, and in picking his brain, it appears that in his mind rank is indicating the varying abilities of all the students in relation to eachother, almost like a hierarchy. From my past training, I thought rank measured an individuals ability against them-self as well as their knowledge. I am finding myself feeling uneasy with this new (to me new) system of ranking.

Any thoughts?

I agree that promotion through rank should in general be based on progression through a syllabus, but...

The point of a karate syllabus is not to teach you moves or dances. The point of a karate syllabus is to teach you how to fight. To promote someone who can do the moves but cannot fight to an appropriate level is demeaning to the school and the art.

To withhold rank from a person who can fight above the level of his rank but whose techniques against air is not right because you are effectively holding them back instead of pushing them forward.

Now what should happen is that a point of equilibrium is reached where sloppy technique starts to become a hindrance in his fighting and at that point the students rank should be frozen until he makes progress. At that point making the student focus on and develop his basics should lead to clear improvements in the areas in his fighting that are lacking. When that happens he can progress.

This will only work if the teacher understands combat and the relationship between fighting and form.

So ultimately rank in my view is about grading against yourself but going towards a well defined and understood objective goal of applying martial arts to violent conflict (or sport combat if that's what you want).

After that is achieved (post Dan/senior Dan) it's about politics and thus is relative to others, but that side of things is far outside my interest.

One final note on syllabus. If the aim of karate is learning to fight (and it really is), then holding someone back from ranking because they can't do certain things is the same as the teacher saying "I can only teach you one way and if it doesn't fit you I can't teach you."

Nidan above mentioned not being able to head kick. We'll to me the solution would be to identify what part head kicks play in fighting and provide an alternative that fits the same niche. The same goes for disability (obviously this has limits). There is more than one way to fight and it is the student who gets hurt if the teacher can't or won't adapt to them rather than the other way around.

That's a solid post!!

You know, I often wish that I was NEVER a Senior Dan...EVER because it's very lonely, even within the Shindokan circle...especially!! It's hard to explain, in words, what I'm feeling right now, one would have to experience it firsthand for themselves.

[devil dog]

Tricky question. The problem is there are a vast amount of different styles and different teachers and everyone has their own way of doing things. Even in the same art you may have different thoughts about what qualifies for rank. For me it is simple; can he perform at that level and does he have the knowledge befitting that level.

In the end it really is up to the instructor and the organization to set the standards.

The main goal for most is to learn how to defend oneself. If this gentleman is able to defeat others of equal or higher rank your sensei may take this into consideration over say Kata, terminology, kihon, etc.

The danger here is at some point others that are learning their Kata, Kihon and Kumite will have a knolwedge base to draw from that trumps his and may overcome his natural ability.

If he were in my organization he may be able to get through the Mudansha ranks but once he tested for Yudansha he would find himself held back. We require the signatures of three high ranking instructors besides the instructors on every Yudansha certificate so at this point his lack of ability in key area's or lack of knowledge would be readily apparent and he would not be promoted.

Of course your organization may not operate this way and he could continue to climb the ladder just on his natural ability alone.

But more importantly why should you give it a moments thought? The journey you are on is a personal one and the only persons skil you should be concentrating on is your own. It does not include or depend on what this other man does. If your Sensei thinks he is ready then he probably see's something that you do not. Instructors promote students for many reasons. I am sure that he has his reasons and there are extenuating circumstances that you are not privy too.

In my mind there are two courses of action that you could follow; one would be to not worry about it and concentrate on your own training and the other would be to help this man if your truely feel that he is lacking in some area's. The later would be my suggestion but maybe that is the instructor in me talking. It already sounds like your Sensei has his mind made up so any other action would be a mute point.

I would drop it and concentrate on my own training and how I am progressing. But like I said if it bothers you ask him if he needs help in those area's and help him. There is more to Karate than just learning to fight. It is also a pursuit to improve ones self and character. One way to improve your character is to help others.

You may find an added bonus in doing so. Often times we learn more by teaching and helping others than we do just taking instruction. You actually start to really think about the techniques and this leads to a better understanding. So if you decide to help him out, you help yourself in the possess and it solves the issue altogether.

Good luck.