Okinawan Sumo?

[scohen.mma]

I've heard that Shoshin Nagamine has said that Shima, or Okinawan Sumo, came from tegumi. For those that practice Karate, you've probably heard of Tegumi. I just discovered Shima and I'm so interested for some reason. Does anyone have any info on this? Does anyone know if this art would be beneficial to Karate or my style of Matsubayashi Ryu? How does it compare to Judo? Thanks in advance!

[Wastelander]

From the descriptions of tegumi by Nagamine, Funakoshi, and others, I would say that Shima bears very little resemblance to it. Many of the sweeps and throws found in Shima probably come from tegumi, but the fact that tegumi was not restricted to a belt grip, and included groundwork and submissions, means there is very little left of it in Shima.

I have actually had some discussions with people who have done extensive traveling and training in Okinawa, and they said that Shima and tegumi are separate. According to them, Shima is a popular sport, and many judoka compete in it. If you go to smaller villages, which do not have organized Shima competitions, you can find them still doing tegumi. These peoples' descriptions of it match those of Funakoshi and Nagamine--it sounds pretty much like no-gi submission grappling!

As far as the value of this, I think it is fairly evident that it has great value for the karateka. Many Okinawan karate masters cross-trained in tegumi, and recommended their students cross-train in grappling arts like judo, once tegumi declined in popularity. That, in my opinion, is where the Okinawans got their grappling training from.

[sensei8]

From the descriptions of tegumi by Nagamine, Funakoshi, and others, I would say that Shima bears very little resemblance to it. Many of the sweeps and throws found in Shima probably come from tegumi, but the fact that tegumi was not restricted to a belt grip, and included groundwork and submissions, means there is very little left of it in Shima.

I have actually had some discussions with people who have done extensive traveling and training in Okinawa, and they said that Shima and tegumi are separate. According to them, Shima is a popular sport, and many judoka compete in it. If you go to smaller villages, which do not have organized Shima competitions, you can find them still doing tegumi. These peoples' descriptions of it match those of Funakoshi and Nagamine--it sounds pretty much like no-gi submission grappling!

As far as the value of this, I think it is fairly evident that it has great value for the karateka. Many Okinawan karate masters cross-trained in tegumi, and recommended their students cross-train in grappling arts like judo, once tegumi declined in popularity. That, in my opinion, is where the Okinawans got their grappling training from.

A solid post!!

Tegumi can be found in Shindokan, so much so, that this type of wrestling is essential to a Shindokanist because..."When the ground reaches up and drags you down, you'll wish that you learnt how to grapple", Soke Saitou was quite fond of saying to those who were hesitant with their ground training.

Sad thing I've found is that when people learn that Tegumi is a form of Okinawan Sumo, is that they picture within their mind where two large men try to knock the other out of the ring.

To me, Tegumi is a form of wrestling, and not the WWE type either, and that's vital to anyone's ground game. Should both end up on the ground, they had better know something once the ground drags you down, and if you've no ground work skills, then you best stay on your feet.

However, some karate forefathers, like Itosu, figured that other karate aspects were much more important, and steered more towards the kihon part of karate. In that, Tegumi can be found in kata; shouldn't be overlooked.

Tegumi...Karate...two aspects that compliment one another. As far as it comparing to Judo, imho, it's a minimal similarities between the two.

[Wado Heretic]

I cannot add much in terms of historical knowledge (As it has been discussed sufficiently) but I would say in technical terms; the difference between Tegumi and Shima, is very much the difference between Freestyle and Roman-Greco respectively.

Tegumi has a much greater emphasis on submissions, and positioning; with throws taking second spot to take downs. Shima, being based on the belt grip, is more of a power wrestling sport; with throws requiring both lifting and footwork being favoured.

Tegumi; as an influence depends on the system of Karate. Many Japanese systems employ a Judo or Jujtusu influence in their past. Okinawan systems may appeal to Tegumi, Chinese wrestling, or Judo depending on the time of its initial origins. Korean arts often have a Ssireum or Judo influence. American and European are the most eclectic in their grappling influence; with traditional European Wrestling, and imported arts such as Judo having a large impact.

I guess what I am trying to say; finding an influence that is definitely Tegumi becomes difficult when looking "back" as it were, through Kata for example. It is a worthwhile venture to research it though; as it is most readily adapted to a Karate framework, having the same cultural origin. Yet; at the same time, any grappling art is readily applicable to Karate with a little imagination.

Shima though; I do use as a training drill with my students, alongside back-hold, jacket, and neck (Clinch) wrestling positions. It is a useful drill for learning how to resist someone trying to pull you off your feet, or charging into you. Like sumo, it teaches the essence of self defence. When your opponent advances; advance. When your opponent retreats; advance.

If you are new to grappling, and uncertain of more freestyle rules; its a good place to start.

[devil dog]

Tegumi is Okinawan grappling. I was told by Sensei that Kuda Sensei said that it is indigenous to Okinawa and apart of the original Ti arts of the Okinawan people as compared to Tode or Chinese Hand which gave root to Karate. As far as a relationship to Shima, I do not see a relationship after googling it. I would come to the conclusion that it is more of a recreational sport. No disrespect to any of you that practice this art. It's just my assessment based on 15 minutes of surfing the web. I'm sure it has more substance to it but from an outsiders perspective it looks more like a sport rather than an art for self defense.