different usage of the term 'Martial Art'

[guird]

Hi everyone,

I had a discussion a while ago about usage of the term martial arts. My friend was only familiar with the perception that 'martial arts' only refers to eastern methods of combat.

I use martial arts as the most general term however. It refers to any codified system of combat practices. From there I use more specific labels, traditional martial arts for (more or less) what most people associate with the term 'martial arts', combat sports for kickboxing, wrestling, etc.(though TMA and combat sports are not mutually exclusive, I'd categorise kyokushin and judo in both). One can also classify by specific country of origin.

However, I have seen different usages as well. One krav maga advertisement mentioned that Krav is 'not martial arts, not a combat sport, it is a self defense method', As well as a the instructor at a wing chun school I tried once saying 'this isn't a sport, this isn't a martial art like tai chi where it's all about looking nice, this is a combat science (not that I saw any evidence of the scientific method being employed there, but I digress. I think you can guess why I didn't go back). This, together with a conversation with someone who doesn't train where they were convinced that in order to be a martial art something had to have performance as its primary goal, forms another usage.

Interestingly, In dutch and german vechtsport and kampfsport (which translate as as 'combat sport') are used as the general term rather than vechtkunst and kampfkunst. There you also have some diversity in usage (for example, the wing chun instructor said what he said in dutch and then repeated it in english).

How do you use these terms? what do you consider proper usage? Any ideas as to how we can make proper usage more universal? (idk, have one character explain it to another in a popular martial arts movie?)

[CredoTe]

IMHO, "martial arts" refers to any sort of institutionalized learning (no matter how loosely and informally or tightly and formally systematized) of fighting for survival, whether in warfare, personal combat, or self-defense. Sport versions of these things are a natural course of development during maritime/peacetime in given societies/civilizations.

Some sports mimicked the brutality and fierceness of the battlefield (Roman Gladiators), and others were/are meant as a friendly competition of strength, finesse, and/or skill (wrestling, fencing, etc). Gladiators aside, wrestling, fencing, or any other martial sport, have many concepts that can be directly used to defend oneself if need be.

[Harkon72]

This is interesting and my Aikido Sensei has given some input into this discussion. In Sensei Halsall's opinion, if your practice of a so called combat sport involves any pre-determined techniques or moves, drills or predictable sparring, basics or forms then it is not a martial art. A martial art, according to Sensei Halsall is a practice designed for real combat and the chaotic and unpredictable world that confrontation can be. You cannot assume any form or style, you cannot follow any script. He says that many styles are focused on predictable dogmatic conformity. "Many people have black belts in attacking and defending in a certain way, that's not martial arts, you take anything for granted in combat and your dead." I totally respect this view and we practice with the intent of developing awareness of the unpredictability and to focus at the center of the storm.

[guird]

This is interesting and my Aikido Sensei has given some input into this discussion. In Sensei Halsall's opinion, if your practice of a so called combat sport involves any pre-determined techniques or moves, drills or predictable sparring, basics or forms then it is not a martial art. A martial art, according to Sensei Halsall is a practice designed for real combat and the chaotic and unpredictable world that confrontation can be. You cannot assume any form or style, you cannot follow any script. He says that many styles are focused on predictable dogmatic conformity. "Many people have black belts in attacking and defending in a certain way, that's not martial arts, you take anything for granted in combat and your dead." I totally respect this view and we practice with the intent of developing awareness of the unpredictability and to focus at the center of the storm.

So by this definition MMA would classify as a martial art as everything not forbidden for safety purposes is allowed, as opposed to say, point karate where a technique has to be done *just so* to score a point, and there are many restrictions on what may and may not be done. am I getting the idea?

more broadly, does he define a martial art as any practice that is intended to prepare you for real combat, or any practice that SUCCEEDS at preparing you for real combat.

From my experience the vast majority of aikido dojos train in large part with pre-determined attacks and specific aikido techniques. I am curious to see how you train.

[guird]

IMHO, "martial arts" refers to any sort of institutionalized learning (no matter how loosely and informally or tightly and formally systematized) of fighting for survival, whether in warfare, personal combat, or self-defense. Sport versions of these things are a natural course of development during maritime/peacetime in given societies/civilizations.

Some sports mimicked the brutality and fierceness of the battlefield (Roman Gladiators), and others were/are meant as a friendly competition of strength, finesse, and/or skill (wrestling, fencing, etc). Gladiators aside, wrestling, fencing, or any other martial sport, have many concepts that can be directly used to defend oneself if need be.

That's pretty much how I use "martial arts" as well.

[Harkon72]

To be honest, I had never seen Aikido practiced in the way Sensei Halsall teaches it. He tells us to appreciate that every opponent is different, their bodies are different and they react in different ways. He teaches total flexibility of approach, there are no stances, no form, no set technique only simple principles that are applied to each combat situation. It is effective in responding to one or multiple attackers and the state of mind is relaxing and liberating.

Here is Okamoto Sensei applying a very similar outlook;

[guird]

To be honest, I had never seen Aikido practiced in the way Sensei Halsall teaches it. He tells us to appreciate that every opponent is different, their bodies are different and they react in different ways. He teaches total flexibility of approach, there are no stances, no form, no set technique only simple principles that are applied to each combat situation. It is effective in responding to one or multiple attackers and the state of mind is relaxing and liberating.

Here is Okamoto Sensei applying a very similar outlook;

It looks like pretty typical aikido to me. The others aren't coming at her with a variety of techniques, they're all sticking their arm out or grabbing her wrist and reacting to the techniques as they are expected to. Maybe I've misunderstood your point? It doesn't seem very freeform.

but, more on the topic, what does this mean for the definition of martial arts? Does it have to do with attempting to prepare you for combat? or succeeding? or neither so long as it pertains to combat (e.g. focused on performance with a combative theme).

[cheesefrysamurai]

Here is Okamoto Sensei applying a very similar outlook;

Thank you for that video - beautiful

I agree with credote's comments.

I also believe that we are getting taken in by sales pitch speak and things of that nature.

I think that people try to differentiate from other arts so they are trying to completely put themselves in another category. Nonsense - they may be phenomenal, I wouldn't speak to that but I think there's a rule of thumb we can put into place here. " If you think what you do, can replace what I do or is superior, you are in the same catagory."

[Wastelander]

Unfortunately, I think that martial artists are doomed to debate terminology and semantics until the end of time--somehow, none of us can agree on any of that stuff!

This is my personal definition of what a "martial art" is:

A collection of techniques, concepts, and strategies that have been derived from experiences with violence and the study of the human body, which have been organized into a teachable system, but which may be adjusted to suit the needs, talents, and limitations of the individual learning the system.

[Kusotare]

When I'm not wearing a Keiko-gi, one of my favourite pastimes is archery.

I target shoot with an Olympic style recurve bow with stabilisers and a sight - but I still think this is a martial art.

In the same way as folk that study Iaido. Little or no "combative" function in today’s world but still very much a martial way.

K