Disrespectful student/parent

[devil dog]

A couple of weeks ago one of my parents pulled me aside and told me to stop disrespecting his daughter. I asked him what he meant and he replied that I had passed up his daughter several times for testing and he felt that was disrespectful towards him and his daughter. I must explain that he is also one of my students (Ikkyu).

I explained to him that she did not have the physical skills to perform some specific techniques that were required for advancement to the next grade. I explained that this is nothing to worry about as everyone develops at different paces and that she would eventually catch up. I explained to him what she needed help on and that he could help here progress faster if he helped her, but instead of doing what I would expected any student to do and say he would help her, he cursed me and told me that if I did not test her he would pull himself and his daughter out of class.

I tried to remain calm and understand his rage. I have kids myself and understand how difficult it is when they get disappointed but I would not demand my Sensei test my kid after he explained why he wouldn't.

I took a breath and explained that if I made an exception for his kid I would have to make exceptions of all of my students. (Side note his kid is 15 years old and should not be throwing hissy fits at home but...)

I explained that it was his right to make that decision and that if that was the way he felt some other dojo may be a better fit for the two of them. To that he cursed again and walked out.

Well last week the man showed up to one of my classes. I waited until after class to confront him.

When I started walking towards him he almost tripped over his own feet trying to get out of the door before I stopped him and asked why he was back.

I expected an apology but instead he said he decided to return to classes and pull his kid from my class and put her into one of my assistants classes. He explained that he was his friend and he would treat his daughter fair and give her a chance to test. I explained to him that she was not ready and until she was she would not test. In fact at this point I was a little befuddled by his attitude. I told him that she was welcome to take my assistants class but that he would not judge her any more harshly or any more lenient than I had. I explained that there are requirements and unless met she would not be invited to test.

At this point he cursed me again which is when I told him that she would be welcome back because she had not as of yet done anything wrong. As for him, I asked him to leave and told him that he was not welcome back.

Now to explain a little further this man has been with me for 3 and a half years and has always been very respectful to me, my assistants and the other students. He has never said a cross word and has always been a very hard core student, staying after class to ask questions and I could tell he trained at home and not just at the dojo.

This whole situation took me off guard and I'm not sure if I should have given him the benifit of the doubt and pulled him aside to ask him what was really bothering him since this was outside of his normal character.

The problem is we try to teach respect and having him talk to me or anyone else that way is not acceptable which is why I told him he was not welcome back.

I called our new Soshi and asked him if I handled this correctly and he said that I made the right decision based upon my explaination but also asked why the sudden change in his personality. This got me to thinking whether I may have acted before thinking things through and also made me wonder if I had wronged him or her in someway other than not allowing her to test.

My question is would you have handled this differently? If so how?

A little more info - we do not have a set testing schedule. We evaluate each student and when we feel they are ready we invite them to test. He actually progressed faster than his friend that joined at the same time so I would think he understands this.

I feel now that maybe I should have cooled down and let cooler minds prevail so I could get to the root of the issue. I have talked to him in the past about his daughter when she was doing just enough to get by and I have also brought her physical limitations to the forefront in previous converstations and he did not give any indication that he took these remarks personally or that I disrespected him or her in someway. In fact each time he said he would work with her and that the issue would be resolved. He even thanked me for giving him pointers on how to help her and for bringing it to his attention. She has not returned (not a surprize) and it just makes me wonder if that was the right course

of action at the time. I will say if it was anyone else I would not be torn in my decision but it was just so out of character for this man.

[Spartacus Maximus]

I think you have made the right decision getting rid of these people. It is unfortunate for the young student but there was no other solution in my opinion. If you had ceded to the man's unreasonable demands, you would have set a precedent and set yourself up for more trouble from them and others.

This is a clear example of the consumer entitlement and selfish attitude that plagues the martial arts. The man showed showed a complete ingnorance of the meaning if training, effort an practise. He was also very childish in the way he reacted to your perfectly clear explanation. Obviously he was not willing or able to accept it impossible to reason with.

Demanding to test is very arrogant and presumptuous. If a student asks to test they are definately not ready. Someone who demands to test has already failed because they have no understanding of the purpose of training.

Maybe a good idea would be to have a regular chat with your current students about testing. Not having a regular testing time is very good because regular testing reinforces the idea that everyone will be tested at the same time. If students are expected to train without knowing when they are tested, they learn that advancement in skill is personal and different for each individual.

[mal103]

This is very frustrating, all you can do is try to get the point accross that it's not a race and gradings can only be taken when the students are ready.

We have the experience, although we all may have slightly different rules, standards and criteria, we are basing the students advancment on our system/experience, we are the ones that should be telling them when they can advance or what they need to work on.

There are plenty of clubs around that will give out grades like sweets(candy) every 3 months wether they are ready or not, this is normally based on making money whilst patting them on the head and saying well done you are now a x Belt. You can tell who these clubs are because most of their BB's have realised the poor journey they have troden so far and gone off to train with the better clubs, there is normally anger that they have been given an easy ride and don't match the average standard.

It's also a kick in the teeth when someone comes along behind you and gets an easy grade, you feel like putting your belt in the bin.

There is always pressure of money, rent, ego, number of students, differences in students, etc, so some clubs lower the standard to keep everyone happy but they end up churning out bad students. I would rather have 5 good ones than 20 mixed good/bad/average.

Unfortunately the sudents in question will either bad mouth your club/MA, find an easier club to train at or (hopefully) realise that they need to change and come back to apologise and continue training.

I've had good technical students leave, they didn't get the whole package so would have ended up on Brown Belt row until they learnt humility and respect properly, i've also had the angry parent routine, some people I will give second chances to but when someone shouts or curses at you then I think the door should be firmly shut on their backsides.

[RJCKarate]

I've had similar situations where families have expressed dissatisfaction due to their feeling that their kids were being treated unfairly and held back in grades. I feel it was more of a miscommunication/understanding but it happened none the less, some leave, some understand.

While it was sad - you can't please everyone, and sometimes people just change and move on. Plenty more students to focus on!

Gambatte.

Edited August 7, 2014 by RJCKarate

[jaypo]

We had a similar episode recently, but with no cursing. What bothers me is that I am a very respectful person by nature, and most of that comes from my training. I react first with respect, and I expect that in return. When someone flies off the handle like that after I've treated them with the utmost respect, it upsets me.

I used to get upset if a student would leave the club for whatever reason. However, we have tripled in size over the last 2 months, and we are actually outgrowing our facility. So it is no longer hitting us financially if someone leaves because of dissatisfaction. It actually improves morale!

Our club also tests based on the need for it. We don't set a test schedule on any specific time frame. We wait until we see a batch of students that have progressed to the next level, and then we set a date to test that group. We also do meritorious promotions (rarely) if the need arises.

I had one kid that was a little to confident for his own good. He made it to blue belt, and he wanted to test for purple. My issue with him was that he knew how to go thru the motions, but he didn't put enough emphasis on perfecting his techniques. For example, he would rush thru his katas, and although he would do the sequences correctly, he wouldn't focus on the stances. He thought that doing them fast was "pretty", but when he'd blaze thru them, I'd notice his faults. So the day before he was scheduled to test, I pulled him aside. I asked him if he was ready, and he gave me a cocky smile and said "of course". So I asked him if he knew Heian Sandan, and he said he did. So the first movement, he tried to rush it. I told him to stop, and then informed him that he was in the wrong stance altogether. For the entire kata, I pointed out how much he was doing incorrectly. And it upset him. But I told him that I knew he would be moving to another state within 2 weeks, and if he planned on training with another school, he would need to correct those things because they may not be as "open" as we are. We train with principals of 5 different styles in an open system, but if he got hooked up with a totally traditionally school, they wouldn't accept that kind of stuff. So he started focusing on doing the techniques the way he was taught, and for his test, he realized what he actually learned, and he applied it all correctly instead of just rushing thru everything. Sometimes, they just need to see that they don't know it all!

[Spartacus Maximus]

I wonder why in these cases, nearly 9 times out of 10 it is much easier to reason with the child/youth than with the parent. I like to call it soccer-mom syndrome. It applies to basically all sports and martial arts where parents start to believe their child is more special than the others.

These parents are usually over- enthusiastic and have a very superficial, yet distorted familiarity with martial arts. This combined with an overblown sense of entitlement makes them think that they know better than a teacher with decades of practise and teaching.

I place the blame on the commercial schools and strip-mall dojos. These types of schools is what most parents are familiar with and they usually expect belts/ promotions after a certain time put in. This is why it is necessary to explain clearly from the beginning that advancement is personal and testing is between teacher and student.

[sensei8]

I've very little tolerance for things like this. I'd show him the door immediately and tell him that he's no longer wanted here again, now and forever!!

Disrespect me, so easily, now! What's to say that he won't do it again? Just who does he think that he is? He's assuming a position that he doesn't possess!!

Fool me once, same on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!! Nope, he'd be gone faster that he could say..."But..."

[andym]

That's unbelievable behavior, especially as he should know better.

[devil dog]

I appreciate the sentiments and advice. I must say Spartacus hit the nail right on the head.

After reading the replies it affirms that I made the right decision. I kept thinking how out of character this was for this guy and thought there must be some underlying reason. Well I decided to call him (I know it should have been him making the call to apologize) and instead got his wife. We talked for a while and I found out that he had been going to what I would call a McDojo for the last year and had mentioned to her and their daughter that it takes too much time to get rank at my school. Apparently he will be testing for Shodan in two weeks and has been teaching classes for the last three months. (Shodan in a year??)

I thanked her for her time, I told her that her daughter could return if the other school did not work out and wished them all the best of luck. Unfortunately I know the school she was refering to and the best that I can say about it is it's a belt factory.

The chief instructor wanted me to join his school for a guaranteed two belt promotion over my current rank without testing or having taken a single class. He said something about having me as his student would cement his standing with in certain circles. I told him that it was an insult to even suggest such a thing and that it came off as a bribe to me. I turned him down and have not heard from his since. The real problem was his school is not even of the same country much less the same style. As I said the best I can describe it is McDojo.

I came away from that call thinking that he had probably had this confrontation and end result in his mind for a while and was building up to it. I guess his daughter not having the necessary skills was the perfect opportunity.

It's a shame because he was well within reach of his Shodan this year.

I guess it's for the best but I don't understand why he just didn't tell me that he was unhappy and had decided to make a move. I would have shook his hand and wished him luck on his journey. He wouldn't have been the first student that I have lost to this used car salesman.

Now I have to wonder how good my judgement in students is. I have always prided myself in being able to read the true intentions of others and this guy had me completely fooled. I wonder how many students have just been able to put on a good act in front of me? I would have promoted this guy to Shodan thinking he was of good character. Here is dishonest as the day is long.

The real problem is I have been doing this for well over 30 years and apparently I don't know my students. I think it's time to get more involved into teaching and getting to truely know my students. Good eye openner if nothing else. Definitely taught me a lesson.

[mal103]

......a belt factory.

The chief instructor wanted me to join his school for a guaranteed two belt promotion over my current rank without testing or having taken a single class. He said something about having me as his student would cement his standing with in certain circles. I told him that it was an insult to even suggest such a thing and that it came off as a bribe to me. I turned him down and have not heard from his since.

This is not a Martial Artist, just a self grading money maker. IMHO...

I think there is a big difference between becoming a Black belt and being handed one. If you can say you have earnt it and are in line with the international average standard then you have become a Black belt, when you get one early or pay extra for it then it makes a joke of the standard and they will hopefully realise this one day if they are ever brave enough to leave the comfort of their own little ego club and stray into a real Dojo to train properly. We all know the difference between good MA and rubbish, you've just got rid of some rubbish, hopefully, maybe one day they will realise but until then be glad they are gone.

How many times have you said "well, I thought I knew them", certain that I have and will do again.