an odd experience

[DaveB]

Thanks Sensei8

[jaypo]

Man, you made my brain jump with the statement about testing vs. promoting based on knowledge. I tend to agree with you- if a student is in class 4 days per week, and you have 4 hours a week to "get to know" and study his performance, then he shouldn't have to go thru a formal test to show exactly what you've been observing.

Good point. I'm still on the fence as well. When I started with my new club, I held the rank of purple belt. During my first class, I realized that my skill level was higher than most of the other students, but I remained in my white belt. The M.I. asked if I would rather wear my purple belt, but I refused until I was able to test in his system. When I did, I was promoted to blue belt which was fine by me. I didn't want to ruffle feathers. I just let the cards fall where they did, and everything worked out in the end.

[Kusotare]

...After all, motivating yourself to train to a high standard consistently over a number of years without anyone to correct you, motivate you when you're tired etc, is not easy by anyone's reckoning.

How do you know what the correct standard is then - for the group you are asking to accredit you?

Also, most keiko-kai are guided by their instructors, but it's the students that pull each other along.

K.

[Kusotare]

One of my the things I have always disliked about Karate is a tendency towards wooly, nebulous and subjective ideas. In the past I found these in the form of vague technical points that replaced an understanding of kata application or advanced combat skills.

Wow - That's a whole topic there itself!!

I love nebulous and subjective - because they are the birthplace of creation.

I'm also a Jujutsu-ka, so I see most Karate-ka's approach to "reverse engineering" Jujutsu techniques into karate kata (in the name of kata application / bunkai) quite laughable.

But, maybe we should park this...

K.

[DaveB]

How do you know what the correct standard is then - for the group you are asking to accredit you?

Also, most keiko-kai are guided by their instructors, but it's the students that pull each other along.

K.

Exactly, all this is the requestor's problem and it should all come out in the exam, assuming the exam is properly constructed to test such things.

As for reverse engineered kata applications: I can see where you are coming from. I'm no fan of grappling heavy application, but I respect the effort to make the ephemeral and mythic (kata is the soul of karate) into real concrete martial arts.

[Archimoto]

I think getting to know someone and having them go through YOUR program should be intrinsic to qualifying for a BB. For instance, in a university even the brightest students are required to prove themselves to some degree by completing a curriculum. Yes if they're particularly capable they can fast track a program but they can't ever skip a program - the program is there to test their resolve, their temperament, and more importantly their commitment. I believe this can apply to BB testing.

I'll close my point with this: THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT ONLY TIME CAN TEST.

[DaveB]

I think getting to know someone and having them go through YOUR program should be intrinsic to qualifying for a BB. For instance, in a university even the brightest students are required to prove themselves to some degree by completing a curriculum. Yes if they're particularly capable they can fast track a program but they can't ever skip a program - the program is there to test their resolve, their temperament, and more importantly their commitment. I believe this can apply to BB testing.

I'll close my point with this: THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT ONLY TIME CAN TEST.

But if it takes commitment to develop correct technique, to learn kata and ingrain movement then commitment or a lack of should show in the test. Either that or the idea of needing x months/years of training to reach the skill levels asked for is a fallacy?

Also I'm not sure if you're comment about degree program's is true. Certainly I know you can apply to test for professional qualification's without taking the course. I'm pretty sure the same is true of university, the only difference being that you need to complete course requirements other than an exam.

Perhaps requiring someone like this to complete all the rank exams and requirements is a more fair way to test them

You state that there are some things only time can test, but what are they that won't also show in a properly designed and executed rank exam?

[Archimoto]

This is just my opinion but there's a big difference between a professional certification and a diploma or degree. Like a degree, a black belt indicates that you have your organization's full endorsement. Not just your skill but YOU. For instance, one example of something that time can test is temperament in a variety of situations that will inevitably present themselves over time in a studio. In my opinion anyone can test well, but not everyone has earned the honor to test - in my opinion it's about more than simply paying a testing fee and performing well.

I'm not saying that your wrong by the way, I'm simply sharing my opinion.

[bushido_man96]

I think getting to know someone and having them go through YOUR program should be intrinsic to qualifying for a BB. For instance, in a university even the brightest students are required to prove themselves to some degree by completing a curriculum. Yes if they're particularly capable they can fast track a program but they can't ever skip a program - the program is there to test their resolve, their temperament, and more importantly their commitment. I believe this can apply to BB testing.

I'll close my point with this: THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT ONLY TIME CAN TEST.

But if it takes commitment to develop correct technique, to learn kata and ingrain movement then commitment or a lack of should show in the test. Either that or the idea of needing x months/years of training to reach the skill levels asked for is a fallacy?

Also I'm not sure if you're comment about degree program's is true. Certainly I know you can apply to test for professional qualification's without taking the course. I'm pretty sure the same is true of university, the only difference being that you need to complete course requirements other than an exam.

Perhaps requiring someone like this to complete all the rank exams and requirements is a more fair way to test them

You state that there are some things only time can test, but what are they that won't also show in a properly designed and executed rank exam?

Here's the main point, the way I see it. If one has done all this training on one's own, and now seeks some sort of legitimization at a school, and one can't get it on one's own, then that person is going to beholden to the process of said instructor's school at which he wishes to seek to appear legitimate. If that is the way he needs to go about being accredited or whatever, then he really can't complain about the process too much. He can, I guess, but it won't really change anything.

[jaypo]

Say that the student trains for a few weeks, you do everything you can to verify his character and it all checks out, and his skill is equal or better than some Shodans in the school. What do you do then? That's the thing that has me on the fence. I believe that I moved up pretty quickly, and I did have some reservations about testing for black belt when I did. However, I did a lot of training with other black belts from other systems, did a lot of online research and watched a lot of videos, and by the time I was offered the testing opportunity, I really felt that I was ready and deserving of that chance. However, not everybody will have the same skill level as I did. I was a very good athlete, and I was 100% into martial arts. My attitude was never a question when it came to my training. So I was 100% committed to the training. I believe that this helped everything for me. For others, it all has to come together- physically, mentally, and emotionally. Some may not be able to put it all together without 4-5 years of training IN THE DOJO. For me, I believe that I could have. But that's just my belief in myself. This guy may be in the same position.

I'm always skeptical of students that want to push rank quickly. However, with most of the ones that I've encountered, it was evident that they needed all the time they could to move up! It's ironic how the majority of the students that should move up quickly never push to do so. But the ones that shouldn't are the ones that always push for it!