an odd experience

[ps1]

I've never seen someone have their rank refused for having poor character though.

It happens all the time. Not often overtly. My first Karate instructor was a police officer. He wouldn't even let you come in the door if you had a record he was uncomfortable with, let alone grade you to black belt. He always got to know anyone that was a senior rank in the dojo.

In Gracie Jiu-Jitsu it's a similar case. We believe your students are a reflection of you. If a student doesn't, in generalities, share your beliefs when it comes to morality, you shouldn't promote them. Here's a video of Relson Gracie discussing it:He discusses it in the first 5 minutes or so.

So, yes, it happens all the time.

[Kusotare]

One of the main reasons I did not "grade" the student, other than needing my cheif instructor present to do so, was that I did not know this kid....And I had a feeling about him. See he also was not wearing a white belt, I faild to mention this prior, my appologies. He was wearing a very expensive looking Black belt wiht his name on it.

Apparently he felt that he could self grade and then get confirmation froma legit school at some point. I also asked if he was joining the club and would have suggested we grade him down the road, but he indicated he was not staying....this was simply his way of validating his rank after years of training.

He'd have been shown the door at my dojo pretty darn quick!

[cheesefrysamurai]

There is way more to rank then rote memorization and physical prowess.

I would like to think that some one could achieve shodan and not be very good at either.

You don't know him, you don't know if he paid his dues. He's asking you to legitimate his rank. Why, because he read a book and mimicked kata at his own pace?

1. He has been unsupervised.

2. he hasn't been taught

3. He hasn't put in his time

4. Who corrected his form?

5. Who pushed him? Decided that he needed more time on a certain kata or felt he needed to focus more on his stances.

I'm not sure id be willing to add him to my lineage so fast and legitimate his time in.

You don't even know if he is dedicated, let alone qualified to represent you.

If anything, offer him a fast track.

[cheesefrysamurai]

A rank should be a reflection of skill, not hours in the dojo. In my opinion He should get the rank that he has the level of.

I disagree with this completely. Skill is only part. Dedication is part. Proper education is necessary. A Sensei taking part in your education deciding when you deserve said rank is essential- if you care about rank.

I would make him climb through every belt.- maybe at an accelerated rate but still.

If he put a blackbelt on himself, I would probably push him even harder.

It's not about whether he deserves a blackbelt - it's about whether he deserves a blackbelt from YOU

[unknownstyle]

I'm gping through a similar situation. Sttrting Uechi i let them know i am a Shodan in Matsumura Seito but never expected to be fast tracked. I'm in the process of switching over to Hanshi Fusei Kises association and was told i would need to go through the ranks again. at first i was a bit put off but after thinking on it understamd because the Sensei doesn't know me and needs to make sure i hold the proper respect required of members before being allowed to wear the rank i earned elsewhere.

[sensei8]

Kensei,

I think you did right concerning this matter!! In addition, is rank that important to this individual? If so, I would not conduct any testing cycle with this individual. The MA isn't about rank, imho!!

[andym]

One point I haven't seen mentioned (unless I've missed it - sorry) skill with a partner. It's all well and good performing techniques solo. It's a whole different ball game with a partner !

But that isn't the central issue. He has not gone through the training process of that school, that teacher. How can he ask for validation from them ?

[Archimoto]

A rank should be a reflection of skill, not hours in the dojo. In my opinion He should get the rank that he has the level of.

I disagree with this completely. Skill is only part. Dedication is part. Proper education is necessary. A Sensei taking part in your education deciding when you deserve said rank is essential- if you care about rank.

I would make him climb through every belt.- maybe at an accelerated rate but still.

If he put a blackbelt on himself, I would probably push him even harder.

It's not about whether he deserves a blackbelt - it's about whether he deserves a blackbelt from YOU

I hope that we can all agree that a black belt is never given, it must be EARNED. I think CheeseFrySamurai said it best, above.

[DaveB]

There is way more to rank then rote memorization and physical prowess.

I would like to think that some one could achieve shodan and not be very good at either.

You don't know him, you don't know if he paid his dues. He's asking you to legitimate his rank. Why, because he read a book and mimicked kata at his own pace?

1. He has been unsupervised.

2. he hasn't been taught

3. He hasn't put in his time

4. Who corrected his form?

5. Who pushed him? Decided that he needed more time on a certain kata or felt he needed to focus more on his stances.

I'm not sure id be willing to add him to my lineage so fast and legitimate his time in.

You don't even know if he is dedicated, let alone qualified to represent you.

Hello all

This is an interesting discussion and though not decided, I lean slightly more towards the side that says if he can do it he should have the grade.

One of my the things I have always disliked about Karate is a tendency towards wooly, nebulous and subjective ideas. In the past I found these in the form of vague technical points that replaced an understanding of kata application or advanced combat skills.

Here it sounds like the vague and subjective concept of "good character", is being given higher value than the things karateka actually practice and can concretely measure: technique, fighting skill, syllabus knowledge, fitness etc.

For all the points I quote above, should not the lack or triumph in spite of all these things be evident immediately upon giving this person a fair and honest Dan examination? It really feels like there is a lack of faith among respondents in regards to the testing.

After all, motivating yourself to train to a high standard consistently over a number of years without anyone to correct you, motivate you when you're tired etc, is not easy by anyone's reckoning.

And when just about every new association has a tale of wrong doing by old affiliates, can karate instructors really be allowed to cast themselves as arbiters of character? We all remember the kind of character Harry Cook was. What we learn about folks in the dojo is never the whole story.

And when we start adding loyalty in the mix, for something students are paying for, that actually is a bit worrying to me because we're trying to have it both ways: honourable mentor and business proprietor. Like the pastor demanding a tithe.

Needing to know a student calls the whole concept of the rank exam into question for me. Either you know him and what he can do and thus has earned, or you need to test him to find out. Both doesn't make sense to me.

Now all that said (I did say I am undecided), the fact the guy was wearing an embroidered black belt does not look good. It's something I would definitely ask about. Also unlike most of the posters were I to test him it would be over a number of days and it would be well above what I'd expect of regular students as there is much more to prove for an unknown.

Also in spite of my above concerns I can totally see why you would not want to associate your club with someone of bad character whose actions could impact on your reputation. In this regard I suppose it is more a question of personal ethics and who you associate with rather than what kind of person deserves rank (something we cannot ever really tell).

So on the fence I sit, devils advocate with a sore posterior (fences are not good seats). Please don't take offence - aside from leaving me nowhere to sit I'm actually on your side.

[sensei8]

There is way more to rank then rote memorization and physical prowess.

I would like to think that some one could achieve shodan and not be very good at either.

You don't know him, you don't know if he paid his dues. He's asking you to legitimate his rank. Why, because he read a book and mimicked kata at his own pace?

1. He has been unsupervised.

2. he hasn't been taught

3. He hasn't put in his time

4. Who corrected his form?

5. Who pushed him? Decided that he needed more time on a certain kata or felt he needed to focus more on his stances.

I'm not sure id be willing to add him to my lineage so fast and legitimate his time in.

You don't even know if he is dedicated, let alone qualified to represent you.

Hello all

This is an interesting discussion and though not decided, I lean slightly more towards the side that says if he can do it he should have the grade.

One of my the things I have always disliked about Karate is a tendency towards wooly, nebulous and subjective ideas. In the past I found these in the form of vague technical points that replaced an understanding of kata application or advanced combat skills.

Here it sounds like the vague and subjective concept of "good character", is being given higher value than the things karateka actually practice and can concretely measure: technique, fighting skill, syllabus knowledge, fitness etc.

For all the points I quote above, should not the lack or triumph in spite of all these things be evident immediately upon giving this person a fair and honest Dan examination? It really feels like there is a lack of faith among respondents in regards to the testing.

After all, motivating yourself to train to a high standard consistently over a number of years without anyone to correct you, motivate you when you're tired etc, is not easy by anyone's reckoning.

And when just about every new association has a tale of wrong doing by old affiliates, can karate instructors really be allowed to cast themselves as arbiters of character? We all remember the kind of character Harry Cook was. What we learn about folks in the dojo is never the whole story.

And when we start adding loyalty in the mix, for something students are paying for, that actually is a bit worrying to me because we're trying to have it both ways: honourable mentor and business proprietor. Like the pastor demanding a tithe.

Needing to know a student calls the whole concept of the rank exam into question for me. Either you know him and what he can do and thus has earned, or you need to test him to find out. Both doesn't make sense to me.

Now all that said (I did say I am undecided), the fact the guy was wearing an embroidered black belt does not look good. It's something I would definitely ask about. Also unlike most of the posters were I to test him it would be over a number of days and it would be well above what I'd expect of regular students as there is much more to prove for an unknown.

Also in spite of my above concerns I can totally see why you would not want to associate your club with someone of bad character whose actions could impact on your reputation. In this regard I suppose it is more a question of personal ethics and who you associate with rather than what kind of person deserves rank (something we cannot ever really tell).

So on the fence I sit, devils advocate with a sore posterior (fences are not good seats). Please don't take offence - aside from leaving me nowhere to sit I'm actually on your side.

First of all...Welcome to KF; glad that you're here!!

Secondly, a very solid post; I wholeheartedly concur!!