an odd experience

[sensei8]

This is indeed high unusual and a very extreme behaviour from the potential student!

My position is that the student would need to join the dojo and be assessed at the next grading session in 3 months time. Whether he is ready for a particular grade is a decision that the instructor needs to make (not the student), this can be done after he has been observed for a short while and compared to his peers. Whilst training he would need to wear a white belt. When he is graded it would be for whatever level he was deemed to be at.

On a related note:

I have returned to MA after more than 20 years (thanks to my children) and I remember when we learnt what we were observed in class and the syllabus was revealed over several years. Now I can see the curriculum for any martial and become familiar with it in a couple of hours. I can see commonalities and variations between different MA's and compare them to each other by simply looking at each of the websites. So students can compare and make judgements about what each style is covering and at what level they might fit in.

Imho we will start to see this type of behaviour more often. With the availability of the information on the internet, students will study material online in their own time and at their own pace, and then ask to be graded as they think they are ready as they have learnt the material for the curriculum.

First of all, welcome to KF; glad that you're here!!

Secondly...Solid post!!

[Archimoto]

DaveB: I don't me to be rude by answering a question with a question. I like the dialogue and am curious about your view on the following. If absolutely every requirement is on the test and there is no discretion left to the instructor with regard to who's earned or deserves the honor of testing, then is it the students who determine when they test? When they're ready? If they're worthy?

I don't mean to interrupt, please excuse me for inviting myself to the conversation.

Having said that, we test every testing candidate on every single technique per rank, with no exceptions; providing that their request to test has been approved by the Hombu. This is why our annual testing cycle at the Hombu is two-weeks long!!

So, for us, it's not an unusual process.

Not an interruption at all!!

Interesting approach.

In your hombu how does one become a testing candidate? Are they asked? Do they ask? Perhaps both? You mentioned that your test is annual - is there a required minimum amount of time in the school before someone is eligible for the next testing cycle?

[sensei8]

In your hombu how does one become a testing candidate?

The Hombu, like any other Shindokan dojo, students can test once every testing cycle, with is held once every 3 months. Testing candidates, students have to fill out a simple form titled, "Request For Testing Cycle". Then, said CI will affix their signature to said form, and then the CI will forward said form onto the Hombu for final approval/denied signatures and stamp(s).

There are NO grace periods; all deadlines MUST be adhered to. Miss a deadline, you're going to have to reissue said form again, and in a timely manner...No Exceptions!!

All Godan's and above MUST test at the Hombu; NO EXCEPTIONS!! Rarely exceptions have been made, but the circumstances must warrant the exceptions. When this happens, the approved testing candidate is usually tested by a board of examiners of the Hombu's discretion, usually the full compliment of 7 examiners from the Hombu, along with their seconds/assistants, with the center chair being a Nanadan/Hachidan.

Some have called the way that we manage our testing cycles is akin to micro-management. And this, imho, is possibly a correct way to perceive it. It's how our Soke designed the process to be, and it's still being done that way.

Are they asked? Do they ask? Perhaps both?

The aforementioned form, "Request For Testing Cycle" does all three. In that, it's the student who is asking the CI, and it's the CI who is asking the Hombu; therefore, both are asking all concerned parties. The Hombu NEVER EVER sends out reminders and/or letters of tenures achieved. That's the responsibility of the students to be accountable and responsible for themselves. After all, it is THEIR MA path, and in that, they must manage certain aspects of it.

However, that aforementioned form MUST be submitted to their CI. If not, then they CAN NOT attend ANY testing cycle; whether it be at their dojo or at the Hombu. The process is an on-going process, in that, the CI describes the process to the student, and/or the parents, if need be, when they join said dojo. After that, they're reminded verbally quite often, plus, there's several signs that are placed in strategic locations throughout said dojo.

You mentioned that your test is annual - is there a required minimum amount of time in the school before someone is eligible for the next testing cycle?

The Hombu is a dojo, however, it's also the headquarters for the SKKA!! In that, the Hombu has 4 testing cycles per year. Every quarter, the Hombu conducts a testing cycle for all IN-HOUSE ranks!!. However, the Hombu's ANNUAL testing cycle ALLOWS ALL STUDENTS to test at the Hombu; therefore, the Annual Testing Cycle is open for the entire student body is they wish to.

Still, their request must be to the Hombu before any deadline is reached!! In that, the Hombu averages approximately over 300 approved testing cycle candidates, so deadlines must be strictly adhered to, and this is because of the numbers as well as to the number of departments that a request has to be signed off on before a student/testing candidate is approved/denied!!

The minimum time is 3 months!! This is because of the time between quarters/testing cycles, in that, any student can submit a request form, nothings stopping them. A student can send a request form on their first day on the floor, but they'll be denied because they've not meet the minimum tenure time of 3 months from the day they joined said dojo.

Dan ranked candidates have to wait one full year before they can submit a request form, no matter if they want to test at the Hombu or if they MUST test at the Hombu. This includes missing deadline(s) or failing said testing cycle for one reason or another.

In short, because the Hombu's Annual testing cycle is held the last week of June and the first week of July, ALL "Request For Testing Cycle" forms must be into the Hombu no later than March 31st each year. This allows the Hombu adequate time to approve/deny said request.

In-House testing cycles at individual Shindokan dojo's must have their requests sent into the Hombu no later than 1 months before the closure of the current quarter. For example, this testing cycle quarter is the 1st month of the 3rd quarter [July, August, September]. Therefore, all requests must be postmarked no later than Friday, August 29th...NO EXCEPTIONS!!

Those students who call the Hombu their home dojo, well, they've got it made in the shade with cool lemonade. Still, even those students miss deadlines and the like. For them, there's one very large box attached to the eastern wall dear the entrance of the main dojo...just drop said form into this box, and presto, they've just submitted said form...no stamps...no licking a stamp and/or envelope...no addressing said envelope...just as easy as 1-2-3.

[Archimoto]

Interesting approach. Thanks for the breakdown !

Is this standard operating procedure for all shindokan dojo's?

[sensei8]

Interesting approach. Thanks for the breakdown !

Is this standard operating procedure for all shindokan dojo's?

Yes, it is SOP for all shindokan dojo's.

[kensei]

Taught again at the club in question last night and some interesting things came out.

First the young lad is not their anymore. Once he saw the hesitation he moved to the next Shotokan club down the street as it were and put the same request in to them. and from what the instructor told me the kid was granted a test.

He also was not keen on the whole "if you test you are part of the club" feeling he got. He just wanted to pay and get graded and leave to train on his own again.

Apparently it was not a financial issue as the guy drives a SUV that is as big as my house and apparently throws money about like nuts. Even offered to pay double for the testing fees.

He did not like the idea of waiting to test and that our Dan ranks are done by our national instructor out of Ottawa and he would have to wait at the least if Granted permission to apply to test.

In the end I feel that we did the right thing, we are not a belt factory with gradings done every Friday! We put alot of stalk in our Dan rankings and we feel that while each individual is graded against themselves, we want those grading under our name to be solid members of the club.

[Archimoto]

Nice job !!!

[ps1]

Thanks for the follow-up!

[sensei8]

Yes, thanks for the follow up and I'm glad that things worked out!!

[tamaro]

My opinion

Personally I would welcome him to the dojo and he would grade when he made the time as if he just graded to his current grade. No special treatment.

You don't know him, so saying he did 7 years or 10 or 20 is all the same for what you care.

That sort of situation happened some 3 times on my dojang (taekwondo). Usually what happens is that a student will cook up a discussion with his/her teacher for whatever stupid motive and rage quits. Then he/she tries to pull some followers with him/her to start his/her own thing and everything goes wrong and eventually ends up all alone. At this stage he/she thinks he/she can just go it all alone ("only fools have themselves for teachers" - missing author of quote!) and eventually he shows up at someone else's door saying he wants to grade...

My perspective on this is:

1) It's un-polite and plain arrogant behaviour to request grading. The teacher should address the student, never the opposite. Note that requesting is different from asking when you'll grade, as the first is claiming your ready, when it's not your place to judge that, while the second is just getting a heads up so you have the opportunity to plan ahead and perhaps do an extra preparatory effort.

2) If you don't know the teacher, I consider it rude and typical "gold digging" behaviour.

3) "Gold diggers" are not the sort of student one should pay much attention to. First because they won't ever be true students, too arrogant to accept knowledge from someone. Second they'll just use a dojo to get what they want and leave to create their own thing, sometimes trying to convince students to switch sides.

4) Some discomfort may arise amongst your real students as they feel someone from outside had special treatment.

To sum it up, when someone enters a dojo requesting grading on the spot, one just simply says "no". You'll see they won't come back as their intention was never to actually train there in the first place. Not your problem he/she got into a likely childish argument with his/her old teacher.

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Regarding the outcome..

He also was not keen on the whole "if you test you are part of the club" feeling he got. He just wanted to pay and get graded and leave to train on his own again.

I never understood why "belt hunters" don't just go to the local sports wear store and purchase a new belt they want for $5. It as the exact same end result has paying $200 .

regards