an odd experience

[Archimoto]

In the thread I started on tests of character, one member suggested that he would fail one of my tests.

Does not the subjective nature of rating character bother any of its advocates?

Is being judged a"good" person by someone who may not themselves be a good person a meaningful thing?

Or worse, how will you feel if someone's darker side comes out after you've promoted them?

The more I think about it the more I feel that holding character as a requirement for black belt which is not specifically tested for, is very dangerous ground. It sets up an unobtainable standard of responsibility on the school and teacher and open's the door to accusations of hypocrisy and cultishness, just because one man's mentor is another man's monster.

Unless we send every bb candidate for a full psychoanalytic evaluation, interview friends, family colleagues and associates, I think we're making a claim we can't really support.

I guess I think about it differently.

I think that you prove your character to your instructor over time going through the myriad of things that transpire in a studio. I don't think of character as a set of finite criteria that can be checked off during a test. Quite the contrary, I think of character, along with skill and ability, as an element that inspires your instructor to invite you to test. The test I think is strictly about curriculum.

[DaveB]

In the thread I started on tests of character, one member suggested that he would fail one of my tests.

Does not the subjective nature of rating character bother any of its advocates?

Is being judged a"good" person by someone who may not themselves be a good person a meaningful thing?

Or worse, how will you feel if someone's darker side comes out after you've promoted them?

The more I think about it the more I feel that holding character as a requirement for black belt which is not specifically tested for, is very dangerous ground. It sets up an unobtainable standard of responsibility on the school and teacher and open's the door to accusations of hypocrisy and cultishness, just because one man's mentor is another man's monster.

Unless we send every bb candidate for a full psychoanalytic evaluation, interview friends, family colleagues and associates, I think we're making a claim we can't really support.

I guess I think about it differently.

I think that you prove your character to your instructor over time going through the myriad of things that transpire in a studio. I don't think of character as a set of finite criteria that can be checked off during a test. Quite the contrary, I think of character, along with skill and ability, as an element that inspires your instructor to invite you to test. The test I think is strictly about curriculum.

I understand, but that doesn't answer any of the awkward questions I raised above. Those questions arise from holding good character as a requirement whether it is tested for or not. Furthermore I feel that such an approach invalidates the testing altogether as the instructor should already know the outcome.

I argue in favour of a test because it would remove ambiguity and show at least that all students are being held to the same standard.

Please don't think I am trying to change anyone's mind. At the days end folks will (and should) do whatever they think is best. I don't expect anyone to care what I think, but discussion is how I make sense of the world.

[zoomzoom]

This is indeed high unusual and a very extreme behaviour from the potential student!

My position is that the student would need to join the dojo and be assessed at the next grading session in 3 months time. Whether he is ready for a particular grade is a decision that the instructor needs to make (not the student), this can be done after he has been observed for a short while and compared to his peers. Whilst training he would need to wear a white belt. When he is graded it would be for whatever level he was deemed to be at.

On a related note:

I have returned to MA after more than 20 years (thanks to my children) and I remember when we learnt what we were observed in class and the syllabus was revealed over several years. Now I can see the curriculum for any martial and become familiar with it in a couple of hours. I can see commonalities and variations between different MA's and compare them to each other by simply looking at each of the websites. So students can compare and make judgements about what each style is covering and at what level they might fit in.

Imho we will start to see this type of behaviour more often. With the availability of the information on the internet, students will study material online in their own time and at their own pace, and then ask to be graded as they think they are ready as they have learnt the material for the curriculum.

[Archimoto]

DaveB: I don't me to be rude by answering a question with a question. I like the dialogue and am curious about your view on the following. If absolutely every requirement is on the test and there is no discretion left to the instructor with regard to who's earned or deserves the honor of testing, then is it the students who determine when they test? When they're ready? If they're worthy?

[DaveB]

DaveB: I don't me to be rude by answering a question with a question. I like the dialogue and am curious about your view on the following. If absolutely every requirement is on the test and there is no discretion left to the instructor with regard to who's earned or deserves the honor of testing, then is it the students who determine when they test? When they're ready? If they're worthy?

My own personal view on rank progression is that the teacher should observe the students and give out rank when the student displays the proper abilities consistently. The only need I can see for a test is to stop teachers playing favourites

If you want to do tests, I do think that the teacher should decide who should test, but on the basis of ability. I just think we should leave character out of it for the reasons given above.

I steer clear of concepts such as "worthiness" too for largely the same reasons. We're not in feudal Japan and if we were its not karate we'd be learning.

[Archimoto]

I see your point

[kensei]

I put myself in a unique situation or position. I dont take money for teaching or anything having to do with Karate really. I only ask that I get respected by students, juniors and seniors( who do take money). I put a TONE of weight on who a person is, if they respect me and show respect, if the are good people...I teach them and I will suggest they test under my instructor. If they are bad people in my mind or behave with a lack of respect...they dont get tested...period.

when a student grades they represent me and my club/organization, I will not let some one with poor character represent me, and if we are so opposite then I am sure at some level they wont want me to test them and become part of my lineage to begin with.

the young man in question was self taught, wore rank he had not earned and wanted me to suggest he test for Shodan or he wanted me to actually test him and confirm his rank, of which I could not.

I explained this to him and the instructor said he went to another club in the city and was actually granted "honorary Shodan" by a instructor. Sorry but I refuse to provide those I dont know with rank that I dont think they earned.

Does he have the skills of a Shodan, dont know. Does he have the time in, well I think he did about two years of solid training so not really. Does he have the athletic ability...he appeared to have it but wanted everything right now.

I stand by my choices not to test him. Respect is a two way street as is respect for rank and a special relationship between instructor/senior and student/junior.

[Archimoto]

Being an instructor and a student myself, I appreciate the emphasis that you place on respect. Over the years, I was just as thrilled by being invited to test as I was about passing said test!! I would never endorse someone that I feared to be of poor character - doing so would be disrespectful to the art.

[kensei]

Being an instructor and a student myself, I appreciate the emphasis that you place on respect. Over the years, I was just as thrilled by being invited to test as I was about passing said test!! I would never endorse someone that I feared to be of poor character - doing so would be disrespectful to the art.

I teach the Karate my instructor taught me, I learned about respect from him, and I will always continue the way he wants me to. I will always be an student no matter if I am a instructor or not.

[sensei8]

DaveB: I don't me to be rude by answering a question with a question. I like the dialogue and am curious about your view on the following. If absolutely every requirement is on the test and there is no discretion left to the instructor with regard to who's earned or deserves the honor of testing, then is it the students who determine when they test? When they're ready? If they're worthy?

I don't mean to interrupt, please excuse me for inviting myself to the conversation.

Having said that, we test every testing candidate on every single technique per rank, with no exceptions; providing that their request to test has been approved by the Hombu. This is why our annual testing cycle at the Hombu is two-weeks long!!

So, for us, it's not an unusual process.