At what point do you have to say man up?

[andym]

And it is very early in your sons experience of this level of training too. He's bound to be finding it hard to adjust to this new level - and the individuals involved. Rather than 'man up', I'd say 'get a grip' and be a bit more rational than the self-centered approach she seems to have.

[mal103]

A lot of people train to become stronger spiritually and not to become walking punchbags. She does not need to man up, your son needs to learn restraint. He can learn to hit hard and fast with a punchbag but must show different levels of control based on the partner.

if you exlude students who can't take a hard hit then how will we ever get new students?

If a partner requests lighter contact then we should respect that, not everyone wants to condition their bodies that hard or risk injury. A wrong move from someone could cause internal injury or cracks bones.

if you only train in MA to fight then you have missed the point of a large part of the MA. It can and should be able to support any student at any level with different goals.

[ps1]

It is the job of every martial artist to take care of their training partners. Without them, we do not have anyone to train with. And training alone can be, well... lonely.

I was not there and do not know if the woman asked your son to ease up a bit during the match. If she did, and he continued to go hard, then your son was being a bully (or at least had a bully mentality at the time) and should be spoken to. If she did not, and just complained afterward, I would encourage her to discuss it with your son in a polite manner. This is why it's important to set expectations prior to a match.

At 89 lbs he can't be very old, 12 or 13 at most. He doesn't understand that people train for a variety of reasons. Sure, someone may have TOLD him that; but he's incapable of understanding it until he experiences it. He doesn't know what it's like to be a 50 yr old, waking up with aching joints, going to work for hours on end and still finding it in you to go train martial arts for a few hours per day afterward.

Her complaint is quite valid. People train for different reasons. Perhaps hers it just to have fun and have a place to hang out and stay in shape. Despite what you may believe, not everyone wants to act like they're training in feudal Japan for warrior combat. You're in the United States in the early 2010's. She's a 50something yr old woman. If the woman wants your son to take it easy on her, then that's what he should do. We call this respect: treating others the way we want to be treated. This is a warrior value; of ancient Japan, I don't know. But it is a warrior value of the US Army.

Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, Personal Courage.

If you and your son want to train like warriors, you need to include all the training, not just the physical stuff. Take care of your training partners and respect their wishes because you would want them to do the same for you.

Just my 2 cents.

[jaypo]

It also depends on how the instructor ran the sparring session. Did he specify light contact only? Did he specify it during the match? If not, then your son didn't do anything wrong. If the match was set up by the instructor under a rule set specified by the instructor, then the lady has the option of declining the session if she didn't want to be hit. If the lady has an issue, it should be with the person overseeing the session, unless she asked for him not to hit so hard before or during the session.

I am actually considered the "nice" instructor at my club, but I also came from a pretty strict school that took the discipline and respect part of the martial arts very seriously. It was almost military in nature. And I believe that we're learning a form that was created to do damage to human beings. So there is an inherent risk of injury any time you step across from another human that is trying to employ what he has learned in class with you.

As far as your son's control- I have 2 opinions on this. I absolutely hate sparring someone with no control. It leaves me open for injury to myself and to the opponent. For example, there are 2 20+ yr. old females that were brown and black belts during 1 certain test. I was asked to spar with both, and for the first round, I had to do nothing but defend and evade. I have very good control--of MY techniques. But I have no control over the opponents (in most cases). For the next round, I was able to counter attack only. These girls are very aggressive, and they throw good, strong techniques. So I had to block hard and counter fast. The first girl came in with a hard kick, and I used an angle, blocked, and countered, but she kept moving forward. I pulled my punch short, but she leaned into it because she overcommitted on her kick. I wound up tapping her in the eye (padded gloves). I was trying to just shoot the punch to the face with no contact, and it would have worked if she hadn't stumbled into it. So my control was there. Hers wasn't. The other one was similar- she kept moving forward and attacking, so I used a "Heian Sandan" returning fist to keep her at range. She didn't block or evade- she just walked right into it. Luckily, again, I was aiming to land the technique for a point, and not for contact. But she leaned into it, and I got her in the stomach harder than I planned on. Again, my technique was purposely short, but she moved right into it.

I think that in the future, if he's asked to spar with her again, they need to have the instructor/ref what contact is allowed and if both agree to it. If she doesn't want the contact, she should let it be known up front.

[Wastelander]

First off, I totally agree that we need to stop this use of "man up" as a way of saying that someone needs to be tougher and more stoic. That implies that one gender is "better" than the other, or that someone isn't "living up" to the expectations of their gender, which simply isn't true. Along with that, I've seen a few people in this thread say things along the lines of "what did she expect when she joined a martial arts class?" and "karate is for self defense and should be real." Considering how vocal I typically am about what I train for, and what karate is meant for, I'm going to argue against this line of thinking.

Yes, karate was developed for self defense, and for practical, effective self defense, you must train with the appropriate contact/intensity. That said, there are other benefits of karate training, and the likelihood of needing the self defense skills is relatively low, these days. If someone joins your dojo for their health, or just the enjoyment of karate training, then what right do you have to tell them they shouldn't do so? I think the woman in this story should have told your son to lighten up during sparring, rather than afterward, but that's her right. If you can't adjust your level of intensity to work with your partner, then you are the problem.

I will be honest, I have gone through phases with this, myself. Early in my training, I found it very easy to lower my intensity for my partners. Later, as I became more heavily focused on practicality and self defense, I found it very difficult to do so, and became frustrated. Now, it's gotten easier, again. As a senior student in the dojo, it's my responsibility to help my dojo-mates along their karate journey--whether they take the paved path to the scenic overlook, or they take the sheer cliff-face to the summit. They don't need me tripping them and beating them up along the way because I don't want to take the same path they do. That would be incredibly selfish!

Now, you mentioned that your son is training for competition, and that's why he needs to hit hard in sparring. If he has a competition coming up rather soon, then this makes sense, and he should only spar with partners who can accommodate that. If the competition is a ways off--say, more than 6 weeks away--then he should be able to tone it down for a partner or two here and there. In fact, I would argue that it would be good for him. There are times to train for yourself, and times to train for others. He needs to learn the difference, someday, if he is planning to continue his training.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Wastelander

[DWx]

The lesser ability* always controls the contact level.

*note that I didn't say grade

Not everyone wants to fight hard all the time. Not everyone's bodies allow them to fight hard. Without being there it's hard for us all to comment however I would tend to agree with Rateh's suggestion:

I thought I would put this out there...

In our school we train a lot of "old" people. By this I mean that about half of our adults are 50+, with the oldest being 70. They all train hard and do their best, but due to their age they cannot do the same as the younger students. Many of them have problems with shoulders, arthritis, knees, injuries from their chosen occupation. None of them would I expect to spar with hard contact. Most I wouldn't let spar anything more than light contact. This would be for their safety, as their bodies are not the same as they were.

My only thought is, if this woman is 54, she may WANT to go all out like the younger folk, but it might be too hard on her body.

Just an idea.

There could be a myriad of reasons why she opts not to fight hard and for some 50+ students, especially women, their bodies may not allow them to take a beating as frequently as they would have done when younger. You don't know why she wants to go a bit lighter but your son should learn to tone it back a little if he was striking hard enough to make her uncomfortable. He can go hard with other training partners but it's unfair to hit someone harder than they are willing for you to.

I also don't think he should purposely avoid sparring her either. He needs to learn how to moderate his contact levels for different partners. Besides, sparring someone of lesser ability it's a perfect time to practice techniques or tactics you wouldn't normally use as it's a lower risk environment. It'll improve his sparring all round.

[Kanku65]

First let me say that the term "man up" is not going to be a good term to us (I would personally argue that everyone should strike it from their list of idioms).

This is very true. So Important to understand the indecent offense within this term. Regardless of gender.

[jaypo]

I agree that the boy should respect the wishes of his opponent, but in this case, it doesn't seem like she made her wishes known until her loud scolding. I'd feel differently if she repeatedly told him to stop, or if his instructor set a light contact rule before the session. But if she truly just took a few hits and got mad and scolded him after, she went about it all wrong. She should have asked him politely to tone it down when training with her and tell him the reasons. Not just tell him how he needs more control.

[bushido_man96]

I'm not as concerned with the use of the term "man up" as some others are. I've told it to my son more than a few times in various circumstances.

However, there are three sides to this story here. You may not think your son punches hard in relation to some, but perhaps this person he is sparring feels it differently. At the age of 50, she might be more sensitive to it than others. If she did mention it while sparring, then the partner needs to be sensitive to it and respect her wishes (if she did mention it at all). But, this works both ways; she has to be willing not to strategize in such a way that takes advantage of the fact that others don't spar her hard, and she needs to follow her own rules. Like Bob mentions, the lesser ability controls to the levels of the match.

Also, talk to the instructor about it. It probably wasn't necessary for this gal to be glaring at you, and if she was willing to say things about it in front of you, then ask her about it. See if she will speak civilly with you about it. If she won't, then speak with the instructor.

What's important in situations like this, is to look at the situation objectively, even though you have a dog in the fight (your son, in this case). Its tough to do, and lots of parents have a hard time being objective, or, they are objective in the extreme the other way. Try to walk that middle line.

Is this the first time this incident has occurred, or is it repeating? Does she have issues with others in the class, as well? Do what you can to find these things out, and see where you can help solve the issue.

I don't think your son is necessarily at fault here. If he was not aware, there isn't much he could do. She needs to speak up during the match if there are issues. Hopefully, the age gap isn't affecting this, either.

[AdamKralic]

The others in the class that fight her seem to just give her free shots. The best fighter does. He literally opens up his rib cage and let's her flail away. It is my belief that she cannot take any shots at all. She must've complained to each and every one of them at one point for this to happen.

To answer background questions:

She did mention something during the fight. I also believe that was when my son stopped using kicks and went to punches only. Seriously his power level from kicks to punches is like a 15 year old vs a 10 year old. (He just turned 13) His punches would be a person toning it down. I believe that taps from an adult are of the strength of my son's normal punches. We are working on that though.

The fights are short...1 minute rounds and then you switch partners. But you can grab someone...my son will grab someone else.

My son WAS the smallest in his kid class at the beginning. He has grown at a faster rate since and that was no longer true at all. But from day one he used technique and speed to generate power. Had to. That or be a punching bag getting pushed around the ring. Once you can generate power to stop a bigger person pushing you around the ring...they stop doing so. When you have the ability to flip the script...that is when you start winning a ton of fights.

Is it different now? No. He's a child in a adult class. They try to push him into corners and trap him there. He stops that the same way he always has.

All punches and kicks can be blocked or avoided. All of them. In training my son every hard hit he has ever taken was labeled "his fault" To think that my son has never taken an excessive shot is well...incorrect. He has been gut kicked hard enough to fly backwards 5 feet and land on his butt. Several times. I laid the blame at his feet though. The harder the hit...the more it was his fault. Guess what happened? He learned that he did not like taking hard shots. He learned that every shot can be avoided. He became better at not just offense...but defense as well.

In the end I believe that one will take less damage, become a better fighter and learn more valuable life lessons by realizing that you can control what happens to you.