BJJ, the art of submissions, and the decline of locks?

[bushido_man96]

Here was an interesting article on the how BJJ submissions via locks has declined over the years, and the main route to victory with BJJ in MMA has become chokes: http://msn.foxsports.com/ufc/story/the-art-of-submissions-061214

I thought it interesting, and wondered, what is it that is causing locks to become less successful? Is it a matter of fighters being able to tough it out? Or has everyone's knowledge of BJJ improved so much that they can foil each other's efforts to lock in a submission hold? The article even noted that Rousey's latest win came via TKO. Only 15.2% of fights so far in 2014 have ended in submissions.

I look forward to seeing thoughts on this trend.

[tallgeese]

There's a couple of factors at play.

I think the major issue is the proliferation of Jiu Jitsu knowledge in all fighters, not just BJJ athletes, is making domination of the ground game harder when it comes to finishing. In the early to mid UFCs guys with years of experience were tapping people with little to no experience there. This is not difficult.

Now, due to the way MMA has evolved, it's rare to find the professional fighter without at least a solid defensive game on the ground. Most have purple belt p,us levels of expertise. Or collegiate level wrestling to work with.

It's a far different sport at this point.

Add in the slow shift of rules back to the favor of the stand up and the push for exciting entertainment over technical ground battles and you start to see how subs go down over all. Grapplers often used to gain advantage by the relaxed ground game while wearing down opponents until opportunities appeared.

On this, athletes a getting better and better. This, coupled with the technical increase of your average pro fighter, and you start to see how this no longer works as well. Then, throw in a ref that stands grapplers up to keep a bout exciting and you're gonna see a dip in numbers.

I think these have more of a factor that touching these things out. One can defend a poorly applied arm bar, but a good one will result in a broken arm. Now, fighters have gotten much better (again, the over all skill is higher) at knowing the difference between what is not going to trash their elbow and what will. That determines how long and well one should resist. Fighters are just better at reading that line now.

As to chokes over other subs I think it has to do with the security of the lock over arms or legs. The structure of chokes locks people in, in a manner that is highly controlling. Once a RNC is set its hard to slip out. Conversely, even a well devised arm bar can get sketchy when both parties are covered in sweat.

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for the insight here, tallgeese. I'd say you are spot on.

With the points you made in mind, what do you prefer? Would you rather see the ground battles of old played out, or do you prefer to see the fighters stood back up, to give a more exciting fight?

[sensei8]

Locks aren't easy to apply; one must work for them. One must work for any lock to be applied effectively because my opponent isn't just going to let me lock it in.

No!

My opponent's going to fight me for control, and here's where experience can win-out in said battle. My knowledge of how to recognize any transitional opening that presents itself to me through one guarded avenue to an unguarded avenue just might be enough for me.

However, stepping away from the technical discussion for just a moment, I see how a referee might be the factor that's caused the decline; excitement and the like are what sells said tickets. Who wants to watch a boring fight? Not many!

The more exciting, the more of the unknown, the more of the toe-to-toe makes the anticipation of the battle so exciting for the fans. Fan base isn't just us MAist...no...the layperson loves a good fight just as much as a MAist does. What they look for across the board might be like day and night, but the excitement factor surely can't be denied.

Tallgeese and bushido_man96 make great points and they both ask/answer some vitally important questions that address the OP. In short, I do think that it's a mixture of factors that might've caused the decline of locks, and not just the practitioners.

[tallgeese]

Thanks for the insight here, tallgeese. I'd say you are spot on.

With the points you made in mind, what do you prefer? Would you rather see the ground battles of old played out, or do you prefer to see the fighters stood back up, to give a more exciting fight?

Honestly, and I hate to admit it, I'd rather see them get back up and keep the fight moving. Everyone remember Gracie v Shamrock in the first super fight? Yeah, I've been trying to forget for years as well.

I appreciate a technical battle....in Jiu Jitsu. If I've paid for a fight I'd rather them keep it moving. Now, I'd rather refs wait for a bit when it's clear that paries are working than they do right now for sure. There's a happy medium, it just hasn't come to the forefront just yet.

[ps1]

The choke has always reigned supreme. Look at Helio Gracie. He wasn't going to tap to a kimura that was put on him by...Kimura. The towel was thrown in by his brother. In addition to the Carlos Gracie quote provided in the article, Helio is quoted as saying, "There are no tough guys when it comes to getting choked; they all go to sleep."

Even since the beginning of the UFC, Royce was hitting chokes, not locks.

I think Tallgeese spoke well about the slow change that has taken place in the refereeing to increase the standing component of the sport. As a black belt, I can submit just about anyone I want, but it takes time...alot of time sometimes. You have to poke and prod to learn their defenses and set your moves up. This can take much longer than the length of the entire round, let alone the short time the ref will give you. That's why black belt divisions are ten minutes long in competition and many submission only comps don't have time limits.

This means that someone with even blue belt level of skill on the ground can just stay alive long enough to get the fight back on it's feet. Combine that with the fact that it's much slipperier with no clothes and you have giant clunky gloves in the way... it's tough to submit in those conditions. That's why people like Rousey and Maia are so amazing. They do it on a consistent basis.

I believe you don't see many leg locks because, while always available, you need to be EXCEPTIONALLY technical to lock them in.

[bushido_man96]

ps1, Alex, Bob, thank you so much for the replies and insight. Very informative.

"There are no tough guys when it comes to getting choked; they all go to sleep."

I agree with you here. There is nothing subjective about a choke-out.

[TJ-Jitsu]

An interesting topic, if I can add....

Firstly the sport is becoming more popular and many competitors are just tough athletes that are not particularly skilled in their standup, wrestling, or their jiu jitsu but are decent enough to put the three together. It takes a lot of time and investment in order to learn how to submit people, especially in mma and especially are higher level guys.

So some just aren't good enough....

Some have great jiu jitsu competitions records, but passing the guard in a submission wrestling match, in a jiu jitsu competition, and in an mma scenario have the potential to be 3 completely different circumstances.

Consider:

-The use of the gi (unavailable in MMA) allows some to use grips to compensate for lack of appropriate pressure that would otherwise be needed without the gi. The jacket and pants should be used to compliment your game, but naturally enough too many rely on it instead and are unable to pass a guard without it.

-An opponent who's not trying to get to his feet (say in a submission wrestling match). Many guard players stay on their backs because theres a penalty if they stand up and get taken down. What you see now is a complete disregard for any pressure whatsoever when it comes to passing and instead see people running from side to side and trying to cartwheel over top of people to circumvent the guard. These types of passes, while valuable in competition, are significantly much less useful when your opponent doesn't WANT to engage in any sort of ground fight whatsoever. Given that amount of space, they simply stand up. If our particular fighter doesn't know how to get in to the game, smash, and pass (which we can assume since hes standing up to avoid it in the case of competition) this becomes a severe handicap.

The lack of use of a full guard in grappling competitions- Practicing full guard techniques is not savy for a winning competitions strategy. People know to NOT get inside the guard in competition because they cant score or attack if they do. This is where you see people avoid their opponents full guard like the plague. This then results in all these elaborate guard games that rely on tying people up with their own jackets and belts. The full guard is almost useless (almost...) in competition to the point where higher level fighters don't even attempt to jump to full guard (those that do pull guard) because its just so difficult to get- they'd rather jump right to their half/spider/ guard etc etc.

In short, the reaction of your opponent is going to be much different in MMA than it will in a submission grappling event. People WILL attempt to stand up if you don't know how to apply pressure to keep them on their back (while you're attempting to open the guard and pass). This is a difficult skill set to learn and practice- if you're off by a bit your opponent is scrambling to his feet.

Most of the sweeps and submissions hit in competition occur when your opponent is attempting to pass/ open the guard. Most people competing in MMA could care less about doing either since they can strike from that position. If you're not used to playing this game often, this can spell trouble. One may be a black belt with their spider guard sweeps, but be a blue belt from the closed guard. Someone could be a world champion because their top game is unstoppable, and as a result they have no guard game (because they neither play it nor do they need to)- which becomes a severe problem when they face someone better at takedowns than themselves (wrestlers, for example).

These are just skimming the surface. You can be a bjj world champion because no one can stop your butterfly sweep- but can feasibly not have any other strong position. You cant submit from guard, you cant pass a guard (without the gi) and you cant take people down. This is 5 points, and a severe obstacle to overcome in competition.

You can be an Abu Dhabi champion because you're a world class wrestler that takes everyone else down (4 points) and stalls the rest of the match. No passing, no submissions, no guard work

Then, you can be a "submission only" tournament champion doing nothing but footlocks. Footlocks are very alluring in these types of competitions because theres no good reason NOT to go for them. Heres the problem in the transition- a footlock doesn't give you positional dominance (like cross side or mount, for example) and it requires two hands to execute. This typically means the person attempting said leglock is giving a good opportunity for the other person to come on top and in doing so leaves them defenseless to any strikes (consider Pe de Pano vs Arlovski and Franklin vs Shamrock). This is irrelevant in sub only and you can continue to hit those leglocks from every position in these tournaments. Suddenly they become less desirable when your opponent can drop a couple of bombs on your head while you're attempting it- and if you lose the lock you lost everything you worked for on the ground (remember this guy may not want to stay involved in that ground battle).

Then you have to take into account the 10-9 scoring system on top of rounds. If your passes leave a lot to be desired and you're down on the score cards, why not keep your opponent down and hit a few shots to get up on the score cards?

These are just some of the reasons why you can see a guy who has "world class jiu jitsu" get on top of someone and not know how to pass a guard. This is why someone can be a world champion and doesn't know how to fight from his back. At the end of the day jiu jitsu is jiu jitsu. You move the same way regardless of the fight. The issue is the ruleset- the ruleset is what emphasizes particular positions and techniques over another.

Don't misread this post- this doesn't mean that just because someone hasn't done no gi they don't have pressure when passing, or because they've got good takedowns they don't know how to submit from their back but no more is this the case that if someone is an accomplished jiu jitsu competitor is this a guarantee they can.....

[bushido_man96]

TJ, thanks for the info. Very informative post, and welcome to KF, as well!