Toe kicks

[ps1]

I've trained in:

Tae Kwon Do

Shotokan

Shorin Ryu

Goju Ryu

Poekoelan Chuan Fa

Penjak Silat

Kun Tao

Sogo Bujitsu

Aiki Jujitsu

Judo

BJJ

Muay Thai

Boxing (doesn't really apply here)

In 30 years of training I've never, in any situation, been told to kick with the toes.

To be fair, I only have Dan gradings in 4 of those arts

[wildbourgman]

ps1, Don't feel like you're alone, I had only trained shotokan and when I started Shorin Ryu this was discussed. I thought it was a bunch of bull at first, but after a little research I found it's supposed to be a much better way to compound and focus pressure to the point of impact. Now your point of impact has to be correctly picked and accurately placed.

Lyoto Machida has at least a couple of knock outs on youtube using toe-kicks, after seeing that I was a believer.

[Zaine]

Moreover, how often will one be not wearing shoes if called upon to use said MA skills at the moments notice, so that they can use the toe-kick?

You mean aren't given the time to take off your shoes before a confrontation?!

[Spartacus Maximus]

I naturally expected that few people have learned or teach toe kicks. Just forming the toes correctly takes many months of training depending on individual flexibility. The method I am learning involves just squeezing the toes together. Some teach crossing the second toe over the big one and then squeeze.

The popularity of competition and the fact that most people don't walk in bare feet is probably the main reason toe kicks have become a somewhat lost technique. However even with shoes this technique is not useless. With the foot and toes inside the shoe in the usual toe kick position is more effective.

Just kicking with the point of the shoe without the foot inside held correctly it can hurt the kicker. With many types of footwear curling the toes up for a ball of the foot kick is nearly impossible.

If you had learned it would you teach toe kicks? I know I probably will because it would be my teacher's wish for me to teach as I was taught. Maybe I would give a choice or only teach it from shodan instead.

[DWx]

Oh, please don't hate me for my question, please...

How often will one use their taught MA skills? Moreover, how often will one be not wearing shoes if called upon to use said MA skills at the moments notice, so that they can use the toe-kick?

Ok...I'll go back to my corner...bag over my head!

Actually toe kicks are taught in (ITF) Taekwon-Do with the specific note that many targets only become available when shoes are worn: using the toes (balkut) should only be for front kicks to the groin or possibly to the abdomen when barefoot. When in shoes like heavy boots or pointed shoes it becomes virtually impossible to kick with ball of the foot so the "toes" can be used against the lower ribs, solar plexus or chin / face if the opponent is seated on in a downed position.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Very interesting post about ITF TKD. I didn't know this kind of kick existed in TKD. I do however have my suspicion as to where TKD inherited it from because TKD has roots in Funakoshi's karate. The founder of TKD learned from him if I am not mistaken. Toe kicks were certainly the norm in karate at that time.

The targets you mentioned are the same as recommended in okinawan karate. The highest we ever aim for when an adversary is standing is the solar plexus. Lower targets are more commonly used unless a preceding strike has made the higher ones reachable. Besides the front and roundhouse other kicks use the heel for impact.

Are toe kicks taught In ITF TKD generally or is it just a few schools? What kind of hardening exercises do you practise?

I put this in karate because that is where learn toe kicks but I remember that they originate in Chinese martial arts. Anyone have a clue as to which Chinese style have this technique?

[guird]

Lyoto Machida has at least a couple of knock outs on youtube using toe-kicks, after seeing that I was a believer.

huh? when? he has a famous flying front kick knockout, but I've never seen or heard of him doing a toe-kick knockout.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Never heard of anyone in pro fighting using toe kicks. I would appreciate a link to the Lyoto Machida fights you are referring to. As far as I have seen shotokan does not teach or train the toe kicks. The founder of shotokan trained and taught at a time when this technique was a staple of karate in his native Okinawa. Now wether or not he taught it or left it out when he started training his first generation students in Tokyo, that is a mystery to me. I briefly trained and studied shotokan in Japan and never saw anyone do it. As far as I know only okinawans do it, uechi ryu and the old timers of shorin ryu like my sensei. Even there the younger generation of karateka barely heard of its existence

[DWx]

Very interesting post about ITF TKD. I didn't know this kind of kick existed in TKD. I do however have my suspicion as to where TKD inherited it from because TKD has roots in Funakoshi's karate. The founder of TKD learned from him if I am not mistaken. Toe kicks were certainly the norm in karate at that time.

The targets you mentioned are the same as recommended in okinawan karate. The highest we ever aim for when an adversary is standing is the solar plexus. Lower targets are more commonly used unless a preceding strike has made the higher ones reachable. Besides the front and roundhouse other kicks use the heel for impact.

Are toe kicks taught In ITF TKD generally or is it just a few schools? What kind of hardening exercises do you practise?

I put this in karate because that is where learn toe kicks but I remember that they originate in Chinese martial arts. Anyone have a clue as to which Chinese style have this technique?

In all honesty I've only really come across it in the Encyclopedia and had it mentioned as an additional attacking tool for the front kit. It's not something we really train or focus on. Here's the page out of the book:

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd109/DWx_album/page264.jpg

I couldn't say the origin of it but you're right in that it was most likely taken from Funakoshi's Shotokan although some of the original Kwan leaders had also claimed to have studied under people like Kanken Toyama and had training in Kung Fu...

As far as conditioning goes, the toes aren't something I've ever tried to condition At the end of the day, because of the lack of training with it and lack of conditioning, I would most likely choose another attack.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Kicking with the toes as seen in the book you have is something that is impossible to do without injuring yourself unles your hold your toes correctly and only if you have conditioned them. If you have ever bumped your big toe on something accidentally that is a sample of the pain you will feel.

I have just started training my toes and it is easy to get carried away and overdo it . It does take quite a while before being able to put any kind of power into. Kanken Toyama must have had experience with this type of kick so I believe that you may have another clue that it may have been originally part of early TKD. Very interesting indeed.