Toe kicks

[shinaido]

In shoes it easier to use toe kick, as toes are protected and end of the shoe is the hardest part, especially if you wear boots with steel toe caps or military style.

Other part of shoe is the sole of the shoe for stamping.

I have few occasions in old days to use this type of kicks in the street fight.

Never had time to think which part to use or how to set up my foot.

Short quick kicks to shins and inside knees works the magic

[Spartacus Maximus]

The point about shoes is valid and I can appreciate that it has played a role in the decline of the toe kick. I'm not sure that the average student of karate today would be willing to go through the training it takes to become effective in kicking something with their toes. Bumping a toe by accident is painful enough.

I like the idea of being able to kick effectively barefooted AND with shoes on. That is one of the reasons why I like the toe kick. I remember practicing outdid with shoes on and trying to kick with the ball of the foot. With regular running shoes I could curl up my toes to hit with the ball but it was hard to do because the rigidity if the shoe.

Kicking with the toes was possible but it still hurt my toes inside my shoe. I reckon that if my toes were conditioned for barefoot toe kicks then I would also have a powerful kick with shoes on using the point of a shoe.

[sensei8]

I do appreciate the pro's about said toe kick; a kick that certainly has merits. Nor can I dispute that the conditioning of said kick is enough to give the most staunchest proponent of the MA to grimace at the mere thought of it.

I'd not want to get hit by a karateka that is a master of this technique; that, too, doesn't appeal to me either!!

[Spartacus Maximus]

Each person in my semi private training session got to experience a light poke from sensei's toes or at least what sensei considered light for at least a week after each of us had a small but deep nasty little bruise exactly the size and shape of a big toe. Nasty...I definately don't want to get hit with a kick from a dude who can litteraly stab you with his feet.

[bushido_man96]

I've heard of use do the big toe like that, but I have never wanted to try it. I don't want to have an arthritic toe when I get older. Besides, they make steel-toed boots now.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Arthritis as a result of conditioning is one of the arguments often given against the practise. The same thing is said about makiwara use to train the hands. The truth is that there is nothing to prove conditioning causes arthritis. If this was true, all karateka who engage in this practice would have arthritis in their hands and feet. My sensei has absolutely no cumulative damage to his hands or feet/toes after decades of daily conditioning. I believe there was a research that was done with Mas Oyama's hands showing the same results.

The key is to not overdo conditioning and not try to rush trough it. Toes take longer than hands and must be done slowly and gradually. It is also very dangerous without proper guidance and learning correct form from a knowledgeable and experienced teacher

[bushido_man96]

I don't think all conditioning leads to arthritis. I just have reservations about using the little joints of my toes to impact an object. Granted, I have not attempted to toughen my toes for this, either, and we don't really use the toes as a tool to kick with in TKD.

My question on the matter is if it is really necessary? Does the toe offer a better striking tool than, say, the ball of the foot? It is a more compact striking surface, for sure, but does it offer that much more pain in the strike to make it worth while? I guess for me, it would be a weight of risk vs. reward for using that attacking tool, or for training it altogether.

[Spartacus Maximus]

The main difference between a toe kick and a ball if the foot kick is as you said, the more compact striking surface. This allows the power of the kick to penetrate the target. With ball of the foot kicks, less power goes into the target because it is dissipated by the larger striking surface.

The difference is the same as hitting with a blunt object and striking with a sharp pointed one. Both will damage the target but the sharp one will cause deeper damage.

Clearly learning this technique is not for everyone and the ball of the foot kick does work if done correctly but I am convinced that a toe kick will have better effect in some applications, especially against a larger adversary...with or without shoes. That is why I believe it is worthwhile for me to go through all the painful conditioning.

[Wastelander]

I don't think all conditioning leads to arthritis. I just have reservations about using the little joints of my toes to impact an object. Granted, I have not attempted to toughen my toes for this, either, and we don't really use the toes as a tool to kick with in TKD.

My question on the matter is if it is really necessary? Does the toe offer a better striking tool than, say, the ball of the foot? It is a more compact striking surface, for sure, but does it offer that much more pain in the strike to make it worth while? I guess for me, it would be a weight of risk vs. reward for using that attacking tool, or for training it altogether.

In my experience, yes, it hurts significantly more to be kicked with the toes than with the ball of the foot. I've had it done to me twice, and it felt like being stabbed--and he doesn't dedicate a ton of time to conditioning them! With shoes on, you make the kick that much easier to do, and that much more painful.

[DWx]

I don't think all conditioning leads to arthritis. I just have reservations about using the little joints of my toes to impact an object. Granted, I have not attempted to toughen my toes for this, either, and we don't really use the toes as a tool to kick with in TKD.

My question on the matter is if it is really necessary? Does the toe offer a better striking tool than, say, the ball of the foot? It is a more compact striking surface, for sure, but does it offer that much more pain in the strike to make it worth while? I guess for me, it would be a weight of risk vs. reward for using that attacking tool, or for training it altogether.

I'm with Brian on this one.

I definitely agree that the force is dissipated somewhat with the ball of the foot versus the toes. So in theory the toe kick can do more damage to a localised point. However I would argue that because the ball of the foot is naturally built to withstand impact, more force can be applied thus it can be a more powerful kick. The toes are not built for impact. And definitely not impact along the length of the toe. The limiting factor with this kick is how strong you can build up the striking area and it is much easier to break your toe than it would be to break the bones that make up the ball of the foot. It's Newton's 3rd Law: for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Whenever you strike something force will travel back up your arm or leg. Your striking tool has to able to withstand whatever you're dishing out. Even with conditioning I'd still reckon a ball of the foot kick could be stronger.