Toe kicks

[unknownstyle]

Me and Zaine were always taught by our Shorin teacher that toe kicks should be used to soft areas. we did toe strikes as part of our basic waza at the beginning of every class. now that i study Uechi i see it used a lot more but has alwaus been something i trained.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Thank you for your input. I'm curious to know about your shorin ryu teacher because toe kicks are not as commonly taught/practised in shorin ryu as they once were. Is your shorin ryu teacher okinawan or did he have a teacher who was? It seems it is only the old timers who still do it. Uechi-ryu is now the only style in Okinawa that still actively use toe kicks. Again the targets are exactly as you said: soft and preferably lower body

[unknownstyle]

Matsumura Seito was never changed for the school system in Okinawa so my guess is it was never changed to the ball. don't get me wrong we learned bpth ways. but with the toe was taught as the proper use

[Spartacus Maximus]

Perhaps it depends on when and whom a karateka learned. When I trained in Okinawa a few years ago only the ball of the foot was taught and that was also true for the other shorin ryu dojos. I restarted shorin ryu and I am now with a sensei that swears by the toe kick. He specifically explained that ball of the foot kicks were an change made to adapt karate for competition and teaching younger children. In his youth, teachers like Chibana, Nagamine would teach only the toe version. I was also told that the toes are the correct and most effective weapons. I believe there is a karate saying referring to the toes becoming like spears. Now I know what they meant. It really does feel like being stabbed

[wildbourgman]

huh? when? he has a famous flying front kick knockout, but I've never seen or heard of him doing a toe-kick knockout.

Guird, Go back and watch the flying kick, from what I saw that was a toe kick right to the face of Couture.

I saw a couple of others too but they were mostly round house kicks. Whether they were planned or trained that way, I don't know, but Machida didn't appear to make an effort to kick with the balls of his feet and his toes are what connected.

[Spartacus Maximus]

I am not familiar with Machida's training, only that he has very strong roots in shotokan. It is entirely possible that he may have trained in techniques from other styles. His fights are MIXed martial arts after all.

If his toes connected and he did not appear hurt, then that is a good chance he has don some conditioning. Hitting anything hard with force with the big toe is very painful even more if the toes are not held properly and are not conditioned.

Toe kicks are also very dangerous and much more damaging than using the ball of the foot. A strong kick from a trained person can easily cause internal damage. Knowing this I am not sure the rules of UFC, K1 etc would allow it.

[shinaido]

In our school we do use tsumasaki geri quite often, yes it take time and patients to get used to it, but it is very painful.

Mostly we do it when kicking inside low kick (Mawashi geri gedan) and low front kick(mae geri) (bladder area).

Personally it is one of my favorite way of kicking.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Thanks for your reply. Do you practise Okinawan karate or Japanese karate? I looked at nearly all ryuha originating on mainland japan and none of them have the toe tip kick.

As for me I only recently started to learn it and it is one of the most difficult things I have ever done. Especially since I have always been taught to use the ball of my foot! Before joining my current dojo I had seen it done and there was no doubt it as to how fearsome it was. it just looked like one of those amazing feats that I could only dream of doing. At least now I have an idea of the training and time it takes to be able to kick like that.

Does your school teach it from the start or only at a certain level? I'm expected to kick through an inch thick pine board with a front toe kick for my shodan test. Does your school have you perform it as part of a test?

[shinaido]

Hi

I train Russian/Polish karate which is a offshoot from Kyokushin.

We start teaching toe kick quite early around 6th kyu. But we are not strict that students have to use it, so it is their choice if they condition for this type of kick.

I use makiwara and square board to condition my kicks.

Regards Les

more about our system you can find on our web site

[sensei8]

WHEN can one use the toe kick OUTSIDE of the dojo?

Shindokan is an Okinawan MA created by an Okinawan MAist, but we don't use the toe kick, and this is why I ask the question above. Our Soke and Dai-Soke talked a lot about the toe kick but neither of them trained in the toe kick because, as Soke is fond of saying..."When I home or at the Hombu, I wear no shoes, but when I'm elsewhere, I wear shoes. I believe that my attacker will attack me when I'm wearing shoes. Then, I will not have time to stop to take my shoes off."

I suppose it's better to have said weapon at ones disposal when needed, then to not have it at all whenever the need should arise. I train in an Okinawan MA, but I feel cheated somehow for not having learnt the toe kick from Dai-Soke.

We don't train in tsumasaki geri. All of our kicks in Shindokan are directed from the waist/stomach and down. While the toe kick of old Okinawa was once widely used, today it's been turned into the roundhouse kicks we presently execute, even though there are still some Okinawan Karate styles that are still practicing said toe kick. Shindokan isn't one of them, and that saddens me.

Every Shindokan kick that's executed in the roundhouse fashion is designed to disrupt an opponents base, and in that, we primarily use the top of the foot, to do so.

However, we've not forgotten everything that's old Okinawa because we do train in boshi-ken, the thumb strike. Of course this doesn't strike me odd because, after all, Shindokan is 85% hands.

Hhhmmmm....maybe there's a system to Soke's madness after all.

EDITS: spelling errors

Edited June 8, 2014 by sensei8