Used to be a...

[mal103]

Thinking about the people that achieve their Black belt and then either stop training or run off towards the flashing lights of another quest. A lot of them think that by gaining a black belt in multiple MA will make them awesome as by having more than one BB is better, right?

This is like doing several apprenticeships but only ever learning the basics of each, I understand some styles take a lot longer so may be different.

Some students need to be reminded that if they stop training in a style then they will go off the boil like a saucepan of water will return cold once the heat is removed.

I think they need reminding that they WERE once a Black belt....

What do you think?

[Zaine]

Honestly I don't see anything wrong with that approach. If they want to have multiple BB then let them, usually they know as well as anyone else else that they would benefit from staying at one place but they are in it for the knowledge. They want to have different perspectives and then they can be comfortable continuing the journey in a particular style. Everybody gets something different from their MA training. While some find the most fulfillment in staying in one style, others find it in trying as many as they can and either approach is fantastic in my book. I myself, after obtaining Shodan, moved to a different state and then went to training Kung Fu. Now, I am going back to Shorin Ryu to continue the journey and the things that I learned in other systems are invaluable and give me fantastic insight on the different ways to do a similar technique. I absolutely get school loyalties, but as a martial artist you have to do what you feel is right for yourself.

[Archimoto]

I agree with what Zaine said.

It's all about perspective in my opinion.

Is one less of a martial artist for learning more than one art?

Is one less of a musician for playing more than one instrument?

I say no, but that's just my opinion.

[CredoTe]

Maybe there's a point of distinction to be made here? Achieving black belt in an art and then leaving that art for another is different than achieving black belt in an art and then cross-training / mixing arts. In the case of the former, maybe the practitioner just felt that the art doesn't work for them and wants to explore what will work. As for the latter, most likely the practitioner uses his/her first black belt art as a base art to cross-train and mix things up to become a more diverse fighter.

[Wado Heretic]

If one stops practicing and cannot maintain what was needed to earn a black belt in an art, can they honestly call themselves of that art any more? I would say not in a lesson, no, it would not represent their skill level correctly to the teacher and students. Does that mean you are no longer a black belt? No, you can not have that achievement taken away from you, or pretend the time and effort spent to earn it was never spent. Really, it depends, on how and why you hold that status important.

Is there any thing wrong with people stopping studying an art after they attain black belt? How is it any more or less wrong than someone stopping at blue or purple belt? I think the black belt distinction can become arbitrary when this comes into account.

Plus, people move and circumstances change. Sometimes it is impossible to remain within a discipline for life because the circumstances of life do not allow you to do so.

I do not think whether it is cross training or it is changing discipline that matters but how one views the rank they attained. If they see it as valuable and continue the effort to be worthy of the rank they achieved then moving on in their martial journey is not insincere. Now, if they fail to make the effort to remain representative of the rank they earned, yet still try to use it as a mark of honour. Then they are engaging in misrepresentation.

That I would think, is the bottom line. The sincerity of the claim to that black belt.

[sensei8]

Once a BB, always a BB! Sure, said practitioner might become cold, but the context remains. Get knocked off a horse, get back on it; in time, it'll be like you never were off the horse.

Multiple BB's is just that TO ME!! An extreme overview of the basics, however, EACH is still a BB. How WE view these type of things will vary as the days and nights do vary from one day to another night; perceptive views!!

I've never had more than one BB, but just because I have only one BB and someone has multiple BB's doesn't make me worse or them better or vice versa, imho. It's what's in ones heart!!

Knowledge and experience trump, imho, any rank and/or how many BB's one has. If one has multiple BB's, then I bow to him/her. If one has one BB, then I bow to him/her. However, I bow in the same depth and length to them both; none is greater than the other.

One can have all of the BB's they want/need, but they mean absolutely to ME is neither can be utilized if effective applied knowledge doesn't exist. If one has, for example, a Godan in one style and a Nidan in another style, they're not learned in only the basics; tenure speaks, but beyond that, knowledge and experience is what speaks even more so.

Take a practitioner who has a Shodan in one and a Shodan in another, they can be in the content of just learning the basics, it's two times the effect. If combined, they both, for example, might total 10 years of knowledge and experience.

In that, if you get a room full of high ranking BB's you have a combined totality of knowledge and experience that one can't argue with. That's why COMBINED knowledge and experience trumps the one total overall.

That aforementioned full room might have over 200 years of COMBINED knowledge and experience, when you look at them individually, the highest might have 60/70 years of experience. That singular is measureable and so is the combined as effective applied knowledge.

The sun is bright because it is!! It's mass is undeniable, and even more so, a small portion of its mass, while it is not as bright as the whole, it is still undeniable, imho.

I've cross-trained for the better part of my upcoming 50 years in the MA, specifically Shindokan, but I've only received two rankings; Kudan in Shindokan and 5th Gup in TKD. Is it wrong of me to combine all that I've learnt and applied in these near 50 years, or should I restrict my knowledge and experience only to Shindokan??

Take what is useful, disregard the rest!! In these near 50 years, I've done just that. Everything I've added to my MA betterment has ALSO been added to the core of Shindokan because NO ART has the complete answer; they all accentuate Shindokan!!

Imho!!

[Archimoto]

Once a BB, always a BB! Sure, said practitioner might become cold, but the context remains. Get knocked off a horse, get back on it; in time, it'll be like you never were off the horse.

Multiple BB's is just that TO ME!! An extreme overview of the basics, however, EACH is still a BB. How WE view these type of things will vary as the days and nights do vary from one day to another night; perceptive views!!

I've never had more than one BB, but just because I have only one BB and someone has multiple BB's doesn't make me worse or them better or vice versa, imho. It's what's in ones heart!!

Knowledge and experience trump, imho, any rank and/or how many BB's one has. If one has multiple BB's, then I bow to him/her. If one has one BB, then I bow to him/her. However, I bow in the same depth and length to them both; none is greater than the other.

One can have all of the BB's they want/need, but they mean absolutely to ME is neither can be utilized if effective applied knowledge doesn't exist. If one has, for example, a Godan in one style and a Nidan in another style, they're not learned in only the basics; tenure speaks, but beyond that, knowledge and experience is what speaks even more so.

Take a practitioner who has a Shodan in one and a Shodan in another, they can be in the content of just learning the basics, it's two times the effect. If combined, they both, for example, might total 10 years of knowledge and experience.

In that, if you get a room full of high ranking BB's you have a combined totality of knowledge and experience that one can't argue with. That's why COMBINED knowledge and experience trumps the one total overall.

That aforementioned full room might have over 200 years of COMBINED knowledge and experience, when you look at them individually, the highest might have 60/70 years of experience. That singular is measureable and so is the combined as effective applied knowledge.

The sun is bright because it is!! It's mass is undeniable, and even more so, a small portion of its mass, while it is not as bright as the whole, it is still undeniable, imho.

I've cross-trained for the better part of my upcoming 50 years in the MA, specifically Shindokan, but I've only received two rankings; Kudan in Shindokan and 5th Gup in TKD. Is it wrong of me to combine all that I've learnt and applied in these near 50 years, or should I restrict my knowledge and experience only to Shindokan??

Take what is useful, disregard the rest!! In these near 50 years, I've done just that. Everything I've added to my MA betterment has ALSO been added to the core of Shindokan because NO ART has the complete answer; they all accentuate Shindokan!!

Imho!!

I agree 100% !!!

That's why at times it's best not to think about belts and simply focus on a lifelong pursuit of personal betterment.

[mal103]

If one stops practicing and cannot maintain what was needed to earn a black belt in an art, can they honestly call themselves of that art any more?

............Now, if they fail to make the effort to remain representative of the rank they earned, yet still try to use it as a mark of honour. Then they are engaging in misrepresentation.

That I would think, is the bottom line. The sincerity of the claim to that black belt.

I think this is what I was thinking on the original post, people have come back to training after years away and have honestly said "I used to be a..."

This is fine but another has claimed a high status even though they haven't trained in years.

I can honestly say though that people who have achieved Shodan level don't take long to regain their former level of training. Thank you for the replies, it has given me plenty to think about

[bushido_man96]

Honestly I don't see anything wrong with that approach. If they want to have multiple BB then let them, usually they know as well as anyone else else that they would benefit from staying at one place but they are in it for the knowledge. They want to have different perspectives and then they can be comfortable continuing the journey in a particular style. Everybody gets something different from their MA training. While some find the most fulfillment in staying in one style, others find it in trying as many as they can and either approach is fantastic in my book. I myself, after obtaining Shodan, moved to a different state and then went to training Kung Fu. Now, I am going back to Shorin Ryu to continue the journey and the things that I learned in other systems are invaluable and give me fantastic insight on the different ways to do a similar technique. I absolutely get school loyalties, but as a martial artist you have to do what you feel is right for yourself.

I agree with Zaine. Well said. Some people have different goals and objectives with their training. With that said, I think that once someone hits the black belt level of a style, they should be well versed in it. If they are not, then the problems lies in how they learned, or how they were taught.

The thing about this subject is that most of us tend to have ourselves attached to a style that we have committed quite a bit of time to, or have taken up a style that we intend to spend a lot of time in, because we feel a certain amount of devotion to it, either because of the experiences we have, or due to an instructor, or both. So, when others take a different approach to learning a style just to the black belt level, then it appears odd to us, perhaps because we think of what they "could have been" if they stuck to a style we might feel more of an inclination towards.

Just remember, their journey will be different than your journey. But, as long as they journey on...

[DWx]

If one stops practicing and cannot maintain what was needed to earn a black belt in an art, can they honestly call themselves of that art any more? I would say not in a lesson, no, it would not represent their skill level correctly to the teacher and students. Does that mean you are no longer a black belt? No, you can not have that achievement taken away from you, or pretend the time and effort spent to earn it was never spent. Really, it depends, on how and why you hold that status important.

This is why I prefer to use the term "inactive" blackbelt. Personally I say you have to be practicing those skills and keeping both the knowledge and physical ability current otherwise I'd agree with mal103, they were a blackbelt but not anymore; or at least not until they start training again.