Help For Beginners!!

[bushido_man96]

All I know is deflecting hurts less...and evading hurts even less...

"Best block, no be there..."

[CredoTe]

All I know is deflecting hurts less...and evading hurts even less...

"Best block, no be there..."

Absolutely...

To clarify what we do,

from:

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But while you're executing said "blocking" drills with your training partner, just HOW are YOU "STOPPING", for example, a reverse punch to your face?? Think about it for a quick second.

Aha...yeah...me too!! My rising forearm block, Age-Uke, is NOT contacting my training partners fist directly, but instead, my FOREARM is!!!

...

and from:

Neither. There's lots of sloped cover involved, but the only active intervention is modificative.

These two quotes best illustrate the basis for how we train to receive an attack. First, we don't train to directly "block" with the arm executing the Uke. We combine Tenshin (body movement/positioning) and Shime (to close, i.e. "turtle shelling", includes covering with arms/hands) with a harai/barai (i.e. parry, check, etc) while executing the Uke. The Tenshin is both evasion and positioning for counter-attack in one motion; the Shime provides cover to our bodies, a parry and control with one hand (the harai/barai), and in-motion preparation for the Uke with the other. During Shime, in order to cover, parry, and prep for Uke, the arms usually make an "X"-like shape across the body, referred to as a kosa. When the Uke subsequently is executed, it is a strike.

In the case of a Jodan Age-Uke (usually shortened to Jodan Uke, "high block"), we strike with the lower part of the forearm where the elbow is; it is essentially an elbow strike.

So, for us, an Uke is neither just a "block" nor just a "deflection". We use evasion with positioning to rob the attack, a deflection (harai/barai) to ensure protection and control, and a strike (the Uke), all together. As JZ mentioned, lots of covering the body to protect/"turtle shell" ourselves, with modifying the trajectory of the opponent's attack, and then sudden powerful impact against vulnerable target points.

[sensei8]

Great replies, all, thank you!!

Those who've just joined us, please break down what you've just posted to its simplest form to KF members here that are beginners of their respective style of the MA.

[CredoTe]

...

Those who've just joined us, please break down what you've just posted to its simplest form to KF members here that are beginners of their respective style of the MA.

...

No problem

For us, the concept behind the execution of an Uke goes like this:

 

1. Shime - this is both closing (turtle shelling) and covering your body; the "X" wind up of an Uke begins here.

2. Barai/harai - the off-hand in the "X" wind up of the Uke parries the opponent's attack to provide assured protection and control (if need be)

3. Tenshin - body movement & positioning; this includes moving off your opponent's line of attack.

4. Uke - strikes the opponent in vulnerable target areas.

Students learn these concepts like this:

> 1 & 4 for beginners for the first few months or more until movements are understood effectively

> 1, 3, & 4 for intermediate to advanced students until movements are understood effectively

> 1, 2, 3, & 4 for advanced, and must be able to show effective, cohesive movements to attain black belt

For #4 above, fill in the Uke with any of the three basic Ukes below:

Jodan Uke ("high block") is essentially an elbow strike.

Chudan Uke ("chest/middle block") is a closed-fist strike that uses the first two knuckles like a back fist; it's not a back fist, per se, but uses the first two knuckles in a similar manner.

Gedan Uke ("low block") is essentially a hammer fist. You may have seen this referred to as a Gedan barai ("low sweep/parry"); the movements are almost the same as Gedan Uke, but is used as a sweep/parry redirect instead of a hammer fist.

Once these are understood effectively, you can fill in #4 above with any simultaneous defensive/offensive movements.

[sensei8]

...

Those who've just joined us, please break down what you've just posted to its simplest form to KF members here that are beginners of their respective style of the MA.

...

No problem

For us, the concept behind the execution of an Uke goes like this:

 

1. Shime - this is both closing (turtle shelling) and covering your body; the "X" wind up of an Uke begins here.

2. Barai/harai - the off-hand in the "X" wind up of the Uke parries the opponent's attack to provide assured protection and control (if need be)

3. Tenshin - body movement & positioning; this includes moving off your opponent's line of attack.

4. Uke - strikes the opponent in vulnerable target areas.

Students learn these concepts like this:

> 1 & 4 for beginners for the first few months or more until movements are understood effectively

> 1, 3, & 4 for intermediate to advanced students until movements are understood effectively

> 1, 2, 3, & 4 for advanced, and must be able to show effective, cohesive movements to attain black belt

For #4 above, fill in the Uke with any of the three basic Ukes below:

Jodan Uke ("high block") is essentially an elbow strike.

Chudan Uke ("chest/middle block") is a closed-fist strike that uses the first two knuckles like a back fist; it's not a back fist, per se, but uses the first two knuckles in a similar manner.

Gedan Uke ("low block") is essentially a hammer fist. You may have seen this referred to as a Gedan barai ("low sweep/parry"); the movements are almost the same as Gedan Uke, but is used as a sweep/parry redirect instead of a hammer fist.

Once these are understood effectively, you can fill in #4 above with any simultaneous defensive/offensive movements.

Solid post!!

Do YOU consider what you've posted to help those new to the MA PURE "Blocking" OR "Deflecting"?? And why?

Thanks!!

[bushido_man96]

...

Those who've just joined us, please break down what you've just posted to its simplest form to KF members here that are beginners of their respective style of the MA.

...

No problem

For us, the concept behind the execution of an Uke goes like this:

 

1. Shime - this is both closing (turtle shelling) and covering your body; the "X" wind up of an Uke begins here.

2. Barai/harai - the off-hand in the "X" wind up of the Uke parries the opponent's attack to provide assured protection and control (if need be)

3. Tenshin - body movement & positioning; this includes moving off your opponent's line of attack.

4. Uke - strikes the opponent in vulnerable target areas.

Students learn these concepts like this:

> 1 & 4 for beginners for the first few months or more until movements are understood effectively

> 1, 3, & 4 for intermediate to advanced students until movements are understood effectively

> 1, 2, 3, & 4 for advanced, and must be able to show effective, cohesive movements to attain black belt

For #4 above, fill in the Uke with any of the three basic Ukes below:

Jodan Uke ("high block") is essentially an elbow strike.

Chudan Uke ("chest/middle block") is a closed-fist strike that uses the first two knuckles like a back fist; it's not a back fist, per se, but uses the first two knuckles in a similar manner.

Gedan Uke ("low block") is essentially a hammer fist. You may have seen this referred to as a Gedan barai ("low sweep/parry"); the movements are almost the same as Gedan Uke, but is used as a sweep/parry redirect instead of a hammer fist.

Once these are understood effectively, you can fill in #4 above with any simultaneous defensive/offensive movements.

I think I understand all your methodology here. I would love to see it in action, though. On a different note, which hand goes inside and which crosses outside when you do the blocks, and do you feel it is important in how it affects the execution of the technique you do? Secondly, how long until you teach a student the full meaning and potential behind this system of blocking?

[DWx]

Great topic Bob and great posts thus far.

In the style of TKD I do, instead of deflection and blocking, we talk about impact vs non - impact blocks:

1) Impact blocks are hard like strikes that smash into the incoming attack and not only stop the movement but cause damage too. Almost always with the forearms, knifehand or sometimes with the palm heel.

We can further categorize these blocks as those that meet the attack at a right angle to the trajectory and those that meet it head on.

1a) Meeting an arm or leg at a right angle is preffered as the risk of damage to you, the defender, is lower. So for example the front punch to the head. The high block connects at a right angle to the direction the fist is travelling, smashing the arm upwards. Similar to a

, the intention being not to lift the punch yourself but to left the force of the strike do so.

1b) The other type of impact block intercepts the movement and almost jams it before it reaches extension. Like using a block on the inside of an arching technique like a front hook punch. In a way it's a type of cover movement.

2) I suppose our non-impact blocks would be very much similar to a deflection rather than a true block. They have to meet an attack at an angle to the trajectory but instead if smashing, make contact and stay in contact to move the attack out of the way. Alongside the forearm and knifehand, it's much more common to use the palm to do this type of block because it can also turn into a grasp or grab. It's a parry type movement.

For completeness we also have covering or guarding movements. Not really blocks but they are the last line of defense. Crossing the arms or covering up like a boxer would.

[pittbullJudoka]

If I'm blocking I am using force on force to stop said technique. If I 'm deflecting I am using angles and redirecting motions to change the course of the technique oppose to trying stop it cold.

I am partial to deflecting over blocking. My reasoning for this is one it hurts less than a force on force block that could in end results damage or injure myself. By deflecting the attack it can open up your opponent to attacks that weren't there due to them over extending or loosing balance.

But there is a time and place for both blocking and deflecting. Great post Sensei_8

[CredoTe]

...

Those who've just joined us, please break down what you've just posted to its simplest form to KF members here that are beginners of their respective style of the MA.

...

No problem

For us, the concept behind the execution of an Uke goes like this:

 

1. Shime - this is both closing (turtle shelling) and covering your body; the "X" wind up of an Uke begins here.

2. Barai/harai - the off-hand in the "X" wind up of the Uke parries the opponent's attack to provide assured protection and control (if need be)

3. Tenshin - body movement & positioning; this includes moving off your opponent's line of attack.

4. Uke - strikes the opponent in vulnerable target areas.

Students learn these concepts like this:

> 1 & 4 for beginners for the first few months or more until movements are understood effectively

> 1, 3, & 4 for intermediate to advanced students until movements are understood effectively

> 1, 2, 3, & 4 for advanced, and must be able to show effective, cohesive movements to attain black belt

For #4 above, fill in the Uke with any of the three basic Ukes below:

Jodan Uke ("high block") is essentially an elbow strike.

Chudan Uke ("chest/middle block") is a closed-fist strike that uses the first two knuckles like a back fist; it's not a back fist, per se, but uses the first two knuckles in a similar manner.

Gedan Uke ("low block") is essentially a hammer fist. You may have seen this referred to as a Gedan barai ("low sweep/parry"); the movements are almost the same as Gedan Uke, but is used as a sweep/parry redirect instead of a hammer fist.

Once these are understood effectively, you can fill in #4 above with any simultaneous defensive/offensive movements.

From:

Solid post!!

Do YOU consider what you've posted to help those new to the MA PURE "Blocking" OR "Deflecting"?? And why?

Thanks!!

And from:

I think I understand all your methodology here. I would love to see it in action, though. On a different note, which hand goes inside and which crosses outside when you do the blocks, and do you feel it is important in how it affects the execution of the technique you do? Secondly, how long until you teach a student the full meaning and potential behind this system of blocking?

Hmmm... *emoticon-for-chin-scratcher-here* ... That's a "toughie", Bob. If I had to classify our Uke concepts for beginners as "blocking" or "deflecting", I would have to put them under deflecting because the combination of body movement and parrying is redirecting the opponent's attack and using it against them; the end result is to put the opponent in a precarious position of being open and vulnerable, with the Uke used as the initial counter-attack to said vulnerabilities.

Bushido_man, very intuitive question Which hand crosses where is important. The hand performing the Uke crosses in front of the hand performing the harai/barai. This may sound strange, but when used with proper Shime, it works quite well. Remember, these movements all move together like cars in a locomotive train; they go in a certain order, but they all move together in one motion.

Another factor that I didn't mention before, because it is a concept all of its own, is Gamaku (whole-body power generation, not just hips). Gamaku is factored into everything, from Shime to Tenshin to strike.

As for how long we take to teach students the full meaning, in general it takes a little over a year for a student to practice the concepts in the order mentioned above. To recall and expand:

Beginners (10th & 9th kyus) practice concepts 1 & 4 together for a few months to gain the basic idea of an Uke, with a few basic but effective bunkai/oyo.

As they advance in skill and understanding, students (8th & 7th kyus) practice concepts 1, 3, & 4 together for a few additional months to gain a more fluid understanding of how to use an Uke. Even without the harai/barai, these three concepts together can gain them significant position against opponents.

After about a year of training with us, students (6th kyu up) practice concepts 1, 2, 3, & 4 together. We stress test them to ensure that they can use at least one bunkai/oyo from these concepts effectively before becoming advanced students. Black belts must be able to use all four concepts fluidly with several different bunkai/oyo.

[cheesefrysamurai]

Im working on formulating an answer. Great thread!!.

A block is never just a block though. Its an attack. As my sensei says, "don't stop that arm, punish it"

deflections are ideal, but not an attack in themselves, they become the setup for the attack

I don't like evasions. Any time i see those kungfu movies with the guy who doesn't fight back, just evading I think "unrealistic"

If someone is trying to cause you harm, whats the motivation behind passing up the openings your opponent is leaving?

Evasions extend the fight AND give your enemy the chance to throw strike after strike?!?!?!

A properly executed block should stun your enemy, or at least open him up, a deflection or redirection brings other elements into the game. You are not stopping their energy, therefore you can use it against them. Not only that, the deflection usually provides the perfect opening.

Theres a lot of lessons to be learned in the replies. alot to ponder. Im going to reread the thread over a few times