TMAers Cashing in on MMA

[sensei8]

To me, MMA means just what the title implies...Mixed Martial Arts.

I agree with this. ... I think that the perception is that MMA means UFC now and while that isn't wrong, it's just one side of the coin.

I wholeheartedly disagree...

ps1,

You disagreeing with Zaine and/or myself?

yes

I'm not a MMA practitioner, therefore, the name MMA means just that to ME; Mixed Martial Arts. It's a name, like any other style of the MA has as its label. I don't put MMA and UFC in the same light, never have and I never will. Why? Because they're NOT the same. MMA is the name of a style, and UFC is just a name of a business; two separate things in MY eyes.

[andym]

MMA : Has become by definition, a title pertaining to a full contact competitive training method. Through UFC etc, it has evolved into what we have now and has laid claim to the title - MMA. The the evolutionary process it has under gone and the origins all the traditional martial arts we have now, are very similar. There was a phase within martial arts history, following WW2, were arts started to by exclusive. 'Throws are Judo, this is Karate, we don't do throws.' sort of thing. This was the sort of thing the drove Bruce Lee to attack traditional arts back then. I think we can say that that phase is well and truly over - long before MMA, by the way- many saw the error in this phase and approach. All martial arts in the 21st century are 'MMA' , there are no 'pure' arts as such. But the title MMA, now means just the one thing.

[bushido_man96]

MMA is a sport. Plain and simple. It's the same as saying football or soccer. No one else used the term until the sport became popular in the public eye. In fact, everyone initially strayed away from the term because the early days of MMA were more like sanctioned human cockfights. The sport was almost outlawed. I didn't see any kenpo gyms using the term at that point. So you're right, people are using the term to help cash in on it's popularity.

As a Gracie Jiu-Jitsu black belt, running and owning a Gracie Jiu-Jitsu academy, I don't even use the term MMA. I don't train people for the cage, so I don't pretend I do. AND THE GRACIE FAMILY CREATED THE UFC!!

The trouble is that the term "mixed martial arts" is now associated with a specific type of competition, rather than being a description of what you do in your training. When people talk about MMA, these days, everyone assumes they are talking about this competitive format. Because of that, even though plenty of "traditional martial arts" really are "mixed," they should probably stop using that term to avoid confusion and misrepresentation.

I think these two sum it up very well. When I think MMA, I think of what I see in the UFC today, and what the gyms that train these fighters are teaching. I'm of the opinion that it has become its own style.

[bushido_man96]

Just because the term didn't exist before UFC doesn't mean that MMA wasn't around and there were systems that incorporated a mixture of MA long before we thought to call it such. So I'll repeat my sentiment: When we use the term MMA we automatically think UFC, which isn't wrong, but it is still only one side of the coin. I still hold that any system that mixes different MA into one system of MA (or fighting) regardless of the intended result is an MMA.

I tend to agree with ps1 and where he is going with his argument. I have some grappling experience, most of it with the GRACIE course I've taken through LEO training opportunities. I don't think that if I started added in 30 minutes of grappling work in the classes I taught that it would allow me to call what I teach MMA. Nor would it be if I started adding Combat Hapkido into the curriculum. We would be doing multiple styles and working them together, but I would not be training anyone to do a whole lot in an MMA fight. I wouldn't feel right if I started saying that I was teaching MMA.

[sensei8]

Just because the term didn't exist before UFC doesn't mean that MMA wasn't around and there were systems that incorporated a mixture of MA long before we thought to call it such. So I'll repeat my sentiment: When we use the term MMA we automatically think UFC, which isn't wrong, but it is still only one side of the coin. I still hold that any system that mixes different MA into one system of MA (or fighting) regardless of the intended result is an MMA.

I tend to agree with ps1 and where he is going with his argument. I have some grappling experience, most of it with the GRACIE course I've taken through LEO training opportunities. I don't think that if I started added in 30 minutes of grappling work in the classes I taught that it would allow me to call what I teach MMA. Nor would it be if I started adding Combat Hapkido into the curriculum. We would be doing multiple styles and working them together, but I would not be training anyone to do a whole lot in an MMA fight. I wouldn't feel right if I started saying that I was teaching MMA.

You know seeing that MMA has been around before the label stuck, in one way or another, and it came into its own, ALL MA are MMA. This is what seems to be the argument, and therefore, we've all the right to teach some hybrid of MMA.

Shindokan's brand of Tuite, imho, is MMA, considering we're an Okinawan brand of some type or another, and Okinawan MA came from somewhere else first.

Borrow, don't borrow, call it what you want, just as long as its effective, and that that effectiveness can be taught.

Imho.

[CredoTe]

Just because the term didn't exist before UFC doesn't mean that MMA wasn't around and there were systems that incorporated a mixture of MA long before we thought to call it such. So I'll repeat my sentiment: When we use the term MMA we automatically think UFC, which isn't wrong, but it is still only one side of the coin. I still hold that any system that mixes different MA into one system of MA (or fighting) regardless of the intended result is an MMA.

I tend to agree with ps1 and where he is going with his argument. I have some grappling experience, most of it with the GRACIE course I've taken through LEO training opportunities. I don't think that if I started added in 30 minutes of grappling work in the classes I taught that it would allow me to call what I teach MMA. Nor would it be if I started adding Combat Hapkido into the curriculum. We would be doing multiple styles and working them together, but I would not be training anyone to do a whole lot in an MMA fight. I wouldn't feel right if I started saying that I was teaching MMA.

You know seeing that MMA has been around before the label stuck, in one way or another, and it came into its own, ALL MA are MMA. This is what seems to be the argument, and therefore, we've all the right to teach some hybrid of MMA.

Shindokan's brand of Tuite, imho, is MMA, considering we're an Okinawan brand of some type or another, and Okinawan MA came from somewhere else first.

Borrow, don't borrow, call it what you want, just as long as its effective, and that that effectiveness can be taught.

Imho.

IMHO, some of the confusion is attributed to whether a given practitioner is mixing arts or combining concepts. This may seem like splitting hairs, but allow me to explain...

From previous posts, I think we all have a good idea of what mixing styles entails, and it is true that many "single" arts today are indeed a mix of many arts. However, to show what I mean, let's look at what bushido_man said in the quote above...

From bushido_man's quote, he's trained in a "mix" of arts (besides his base TKD). If he shared some of that training with his students, I agree that he wouldn't be training them in "MMA" nor a "mixed art". Rather, he's showing them concepts they can use to enhance their own art; he'd be combining concepts.

I'm in slight disagreement with sensei8 when he mentions Tuite. See, rather than a separate art form, Tuite is a set of concepts that provide fighting sense and cohesion when combined with the basics of Okinawan karate. It's not a separate MA from Okinawan karate, it's part of the same art; again, combining concepts.

For myself, when I train with my Ti instructor, I'm not really learning a separate art. I'm infusing my Shorin-Ryu with a set of concepts that were meant to be a part of it from the beginning. Ti is a set of concepts, not a separate art, and doesn't make my art an "MMA" nor a "mixed art" at all...

[sensei8]

Just because the term didn't exist before UFC doesn't mean that MMA wasn't around and there were systems that incorporated a mixture of MA long before we thought to call it such. So I'll repeat my sentiment: When we use the term MMA we automatically think UFC, which isn't wrong, but it is still only one side of the coin. I still hold that any system that mixes different MA into one system of MA (or fighting) regardless of the intended result is an MMA.

I tend to agree with ps1 and where he is going with his argument. I have some grappling experience, most of it with the GRACIE course I've taken through LEO training opportunities. I don't think that if I started added in 30 minutes of grappling work in the classes I taught that it would allow me to call what I teach MMA. Nor would it be if I started adding Combat Hapkido into the curriculum. We would be doing multiple styles and working them together, but I would not be training anyone to do a whole lot in an MMA fight. I wouldn't feel right if I started saying that I was teaching MMA.

You know seeing that MMA has been around before the label stuck, in one way or another, and it came into its own, ALL MA are MMA. This is what seems to be the argument, and therefore, we've all the right to teach some hybrid of MMA.

Shindokan's brand of Tuite, imho, is MMA, considering we're an Okinawan brand of some type or another, and Okinawan MA came from somewhere else first.

Borrow, don't borrow, call it what you want, just as long as its effective, and that that effectiveness can be taught.

Imho.

IMHO, some of the confusion is attributed to whether a given practitioner is mixing arts or combining concepts. This may seem like splitting hairs, but allow me to explain...

From previous posts, I think we all have a good idea of what mixing styles entails, and it is true that many "single" arts today are indeed a mix of many arts. However, to show what I mean, let's look at what bushido_man said in the quote above...

From bushido_man's quote, he's trained in a "mix" of arts (besides his base TKD). If he shared some of that training with his students, I agree that he wouldn't be training them in "MMA" nor a "mixed art". Rather, he's showing them concepts they can use to enhance their own art; he'd be combining concepts.

I'm in slight disagreement with sensei8 when he mentions Tuite. See, rather than a separate art form, Tuite is a set of concepts that provide fighting sense and cohesion when combined with the basics of Okinawan karate. It's not a separate MA from Okinawan karate, it's part of the same art; again, combining concepts.

For myself, when I train with my Ti instructor, I'm not really learning a separate art. I'm infusing my Shorin-Ryu with a set of concepts that were meant to be a part of it from the beginning. Ti is a set of concepts, not a separate art, and doesn't make my art an "MMA" nor a "mixed art" at all...

Solid post!!

I'm in FULL disagreement with what I said about our brand of Tuite because I believe that our brand of Tuite is solid across the board. Those concepts, I hold dearly and close to my heart, now and forever. But, in playing devils advocate, for the moment, claiming our brand of Tuite as a form and/or part of MMA.

Shindokan, as well as our brand of Tuite, isn't MMA, not even close. As CredoTe has stated so well, cohesive concepts that form what we have AS a solid style of the MA.

I've trained in a plethora of styles over the near 50 years to broaden my understanding and knowledge about the different styles of the MA so that I can meet head-on said style with certainty and confidence with what Shindokan is. But Shindokan stands in the front proudly, as it should because I sincerely believe in its effectiveness!!

[bushido_man96]

The other thing we aren't really talking about in regards to MMA is the transition that is taught between each of the arts studied, so that they all phase together. My son has a pretty good base started in Wrestling. I can start teaching him TKD too, but even if I do that, I'm not really making him into a Mixed Martial Artist. He would need to learn how to make these two styles transition together; being able to use TKD to set up his takedowns and Wrestling tactics, and vise versa. Then, I would start to lean towards calling him a Mixed Martial Artist.

[sensei8]

The other thing we aren't really talking about in regards to MMA is the transition that is taught between each of the arts studied, so that they all phase together. My son has a pretty good base started in Wrestling. I can start teaching him TKD too, but even if I do that, I'm not really making him into a Mixed Martial Artist. He would need to learn how to make these two styles transition together; being able to use TKD to set up his takedowns and Wrestling tactics, and vise versa. Then, I would start to lean towards calling him a Mixed Martial Artist.

Solid post!!

With Kendall, you're providing him additional and effective "tools" to add to his MA toolbox.

[Joppe]

I dont have the knowledge to join a discussion about how mixed the history of MA is.

Most of my life I have shared to public opinion about MA: Karate is kicking and striking. Judo is throwing. TKD is spinning and jumping around. Escrima is beating on eachoter with sticks etc.

After starting MA in a relatively high age (late 30s) I now can see that all MA have a mixture of pretty much everything.

But I must say I agree with the first post in this tread. There are many cashing easy money on selling 'MMA-classes' that do not have anything to do with what most think when they hear the word 'MMA' (most probably think of UFC).

Let me tell you a story

After I started JKA Shotokan I wanted to crosstrain another form for MA to boost my cardio, loose weight and learn som groundwork. And I didn't want it to mess up my karateskills (remember I'm still new to the karate).

After some research I decided to try some 'MMA'. MMA as the sport you see in UFC.

The fitnesscenter I'm already a member of, started a new class that they called 'MMA-Training'. Lots of adds, banners and such to promote the new class. They used stock pictures of fighters in octagons. I even think they ued a old picture of George St. Pierre.

It was perfect for me. I was a member og the center so I could take the class for free. I went there early the first day the class was going to start. I was standing there waiting, and with me were 5-6 'UFC-fans' waiting in their brand new Hayabusa Rashguards and Bad Boy Fightshorts. And then there were tons of young fit women that wanted to try it out.

The trainer showed up and it was a woman in er early 20s in fitness clothes. The room was big, woodfloors, nice and fresh with open windows.

The class started with some stepup excersizes to the tunes of Kate Perry and Britney Spears. We were handed fitness-gloves and it was time for 'shadow boxing'. No heavybags or sparring because it was considered dangerous. Lots of the moves reminded me of how I dance after a few drinks at a bar.

Needless to say, the UFC-fans left the class early. I endured to the end (mostly because of the good looking company). But I havn't been there since that time. Last I heard they are talking about changing the name of the class to 'Combat-Zumba'....

The week later I went to my daughters BJJ club. The club also has 'MMA-classes' so I thought I'd try that out.

I found the part of the building were thy had MMA. The walls - the whole place - smelled of sweat and tigerbalm. The beginner class was pretty basic. Strike combinations, kicks, and some basic takedowns. Full contact sparring with gloves and shinguards.

Lots of cardio and strengthtraining. I honestly puked of exhaustion after the class, and my body was bruised all over. I come back every week and love it.

Both this classes can call their training 'MMA'. But there is a huge difference in what the classes teach.