Paging Sensei8, Bunkai thoughts.

[Wastelander]

The first thing I would mention is that the Pinan kata aren't a great place to be looking for the original intent of any technique, for the very reason that CredoTe mentions--they were made for school children.

I'm going to have to slightly disagree here.

I get the impression that just because Itosu invented the Pinan (Heian) kata for school children it appears to me most do not put much value in their importance.

While they may have been made for school children the move is going to be the same, but the application changes.

Iha sensei of Shorin Ryu Shidokan once told us there is a mudansha (lower grade) bunkai and yudansha (black belt holder) bunkai. For example there is a move in Pinan Godan that is exactly the same in Chinto. While teaching it to the lower grades you teach the "basic" bunkai which is a block and counter, When it gets to the advance kata the application taught is an advance tuite technique. By then the student has a better mastery of the moves.

From my training and experience what made the kata much better suited for school children was their length and lack of teaching the advance applications. In other words, they are much shorter by about a third of the advance kata.

If any of you have taught children you know that their attention span is much shorter. Also they were being taught in the school system with a limited amount of time.

Here's something else, use the Pinan kata as your basics like basic math and multiplication. It's the foundation to the advance techniques. It opens that door. Without it, it makes it that much harder.

Anyway, my humble opinion. I think everyone here has given some outstanding advice.

I'm not surprised that you disagree--most people do, actually. My point of view on the Pinan kata can be a bit inflammatory, so I don't get into it in public forums too often. Suffice it to say that I subscribe to the idea that if you have time to practice the Pinan kata, you have time to practice Passai, Kusanku, and Chinto instead.

[BlackKnight]

I'm not surprised that you disagree--most people do, actually. My point of view on the Pinan kata can be a bit inflammatory, so I don't get into it in public forums too often. Suffice it to say that I subscribe to the idea that if you have time to practice the Pinan kata, you have time to practice Passai, Kusanku, and Chinto instead.

Don't worry about it. Differences of opinion are ok.

In case you haven't figured out who I am yet I've told you in the past, keep doing what you're doing. You're head above shoulders then what most people are doing in karate. Just don't discount the pinan kata.

Sorry for the thread drift everyone.

[CredoTe]

I'm not surprised that you disagree--most people do, actually. My point of view on the Pinan kata can be a bit inflammatory, so I don't get into it in public forums too often. Suffice it to say that I subscribe to the idea that if you have time to practice the Pinan kata, you have time to practice Passai, Kusanku, and Chinto instead.

Don't worry about it. Differences of opinion are ok.

In case you haven't figured out who I am yet I've told you in the past, keep doing what you're doing. You're head above shoulders then what most people are doing in karate. Just don't discount the pinan kata.

Sorry for the thread drift everyone.

Never The Pinan kata hold great instructional / training value. While I'm not as "inflammatory" as Wastelander regarding practicing other kata instead of the Pinan (all kata in one's curriculum should be practiced regularly, IMHO), they should be trained with proper purpose and context in mind (as with any kata).

Part of the original purpose was to train mass numbers of beginners basic / foundational movements in a context that "sort of" simulated fight sequences. I say "sort of" because each Pinan kata is like several sequences of kihon movements strung together in different ways that "sort of" mimics how a fight against one or multiple opponents may occur. I know this may sound like I just described all kata, but the Pinan are a special case because the movements are much more basic than the other Shorin-Ryu/Shuri-te kata, and there are no implied techniques (at least in Matsubayashi-Ryu); "implied techniques" meaning, techniques / movements not actually physically performed in the kata, but implied through bunkai/oyo (Naihanchi and more advanced kata are full of them).

[pittbullJudoka]

I know I'm late replying to this thread but I have been pondering on this set of moves after Shorikid posed this question a few weeks ago during class. I finally got to play with the technique trying to stay away from conventional thoughts of this does this and this. I played with the idea of what if the pressing block into the spear hand( I chose it to be a palm heel). then turning for a throw but instead of the throw what if it went wrong here and the managed to counter or not go down from the throw attempt.

I could not replicate was I was envisioning with the help from Shorikid but was happy with the results none the less. I'm still pondering various solutions to the problem.

But solid post from everyone on this as I am a firm believer that you give a section of kata to 10 dan level karateka and you'll get atleast 12 bunkai.

[bushido_man96]

We have this move in Do San hyung, and Stuart Anslow gives some applications he uses in his book. He shows using the spear hand as an entry move, getting in to grab the arm, then spin into a throw.

He also lists some alternative applications, as a release from a grab, then spinning to a backfist, or an elbow strike if closer. Another interesting application he presents is the twisting of the fingers into the solar plexus as a distraction/pain compliance to gain space when grabbed, as in a front choke. I don't care for that application so much.

A disclaimer here; I have not had the opportunity to practice these applications, so can't speak on their performance.

[devil dog]

We call this Kata Pinan Shodan. We teach the bunkai to this series of techniques a couple of different ways.

1. you are on the outside of the attackers left arm and blocking with the left Chudan Shuto Uke which transitions into a grap of their left arm. The Nukite Zuki is actually the throwing arm. As you step foward with the right leg you are placing it behind the attackers left leg and with the right hand (Nukite) you push the attacker off balance and to the ground or choke the attacker by maintaining your grasp of the left arm.

2. same sequence but instead of pushing with the right hand you grab and turn for the throw.

3. you are on the outside of the attackers right side blocking with the right chudan shuto uke, you move forward into a natural stance with your left foot and instead of a block you trap his arm by lifting and dropping down into what looks like a chudan shuto uke with your left arm and press his head with the left hand to open the throat and execute a nukite zuki to the throat.

There are many more sequences and probably three dozen different versions. I am not sure which is right or what was originally intended by the founder because there are so many different scenarios taught by other arts.

We actually ask our students to tell us what they think the movement is before showing them our accepted Bunkai. Its great practice and a way to develop more techniques and self defense sequences and gives the student a deeper understanding of the kata itself.

What do you think it means? Look at the sequences and figure out what you think they are. Try them out with a partner and see if they work. That is the wonderful thing about Kata, it's a universe of possible techniques waiting to be discovered and all you have to do is open your mind to the possibilities.

Good luck.

[jaypo]

That's what I love about MA! You can put so many things into each movement. You can "put yourself" into the kata!

I like to use the knife hand block on the inside (blocking a right handed punch), grab and press that arm down, step, nuki te. My left hand still holds the punching arm. I nuki te becomes a grab, and by turning to my left, I throw my attacker using a pushing force from the arm I'm grabbing with and a pulling force from the hand I'm grabbing his arm with. It causes the opponent to be on his back.

I'm not very good at typing bunkai. Sorry if it's confusing!