Paging Sensei8, Bunkai thoughts.

[ShoriKid]

Sensei8, and any other interested karateka,

PitbullJudoka and I decided you were the man to talk to on this. Your knowledge is deep and broad. And everyone else who has toyed with karate kata and applications, I'm looking for thoughts.

Tuesday night in class I posed a question to our little class. In Shotokan's (and related karate arts) Heian Nidan, the spear hand at the end of the line, what does it do? Now, I pose that because I framed the question like this. Kata generally mirrors itself, telling you that what works on/against one side of the attacker works on the other. Punches, blocks, knife hands etc. But, the spear hand from Heian Nidan, which appears in other kata, uses only the right hand. Why no mirror. What attack is it countering, or technique is it setting up that doesn't have a mirror, or the mirror is so rare that it isn't work including in a civilian self defense system?

Now, my knowledge of kata isn't super extensive, however we see almost all techniques mirrored on the left and right sides of the body relatively early on in your training. This single thing though, I can't think of having a left hand mirror. Gojushiho has a series of spear hands on both sides of the body, but it is a relatively advanced kata in Matsubayashi Ryu where I know it from. It is very different than how it is expressed in Shotokan though, smaller, more conservative in footwork and execution.

Again, Sensei8 we though of you because of your knowledge of Okinawan arts. However, I'm happy to have anyone chime in on this topic. I know Iain Abernethy teaches the technique as a throw in his approach, and that seems to work well enough, but again, why no mirror? Questioning and questing for knowledge and learning as always.

For reference the movement in question is at the 27/28 second mark here

[jaypo]

Actually, that spearhand comes after a block. You're pushing down an attack with your left hand and thrusting a spearhand to a soft spot (either the throat or solar plexus). That's why your spear hand is resting on top of your left hand. That left hand has just pushed down the opponent's attacking hand or foot. (Think of "catching" an opponent's punch towards your chest with your left hand.)

As my Sensei always tells us, the kata is the alphabet. You have to put the letters together to make the words. The kata may look a certain way, but the application may be different. Naihanchis (or Tekkis) are all done in a straight line left to right, but all of the techniques can be applied forwards and backwards as well.

We always do the bunkai for Nidan left and right with the attack on the inside and outside. So it can be used on either side. In the kata, it's probably only applied with 1 hand to allow the kata to flow more easily. Not every movement has a mirror. But most movements can be applied with either side.

[CredoTe]

...

Not every movement has a mirror. But most movements can be applied with either side.

I think this answers the heart of the question at hand. Waza might only be performed by one side of the body in certain kata, but the bunkai/oyo are to be practiced with a partner using both sides.

As a fellow Matsubayashi-Ryu practitioner, the waza for the nukite (spear hand) in Pinan Shodan (Heian Nidan) varies from what is shown in the video. For instance, we perform it in Shizentai dachi (natural walking stance), not zenkutsu dachi, and the opposite hand draws hikite (as opposed to across the chest for the nukite to rest on). Also, the nukite in Pinan Shodan in Matsubayashi-Ryu never extends all the way like shown in that video; the elbow stays bent and near the ribs.

There are several conceptual and bunkai/oyo reasons for the way we do it in Matsubayashi-Ryu. Conceptually, the primary reason for nukite performed like we do in Pinan Shodan (elbow bent, near bottom ribs) is to show proper, natural hand positioning and distancing during the transition of a tsuki (punch). This is to help beginner students (remember, the Pinan kata were originally targeted at school children) understand and experience the reasons why our hands turn over (twist) in a punch. Our hands naturally turn over from palms up in chamber to palms down when fully extended; that's how the body naturally works. This is also why all full extension hand waza in Matsubayashi-Ryu are performed palms down, and why many partial extension waza are performed vertically with palms facing inwards (like nukite in Pinan Shodan (Heian Nidan) or the kentsui uchi (hammer fists) in Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan)).

In Matsubayashi-Ryu, because the waza in Pinan Shodan is performed slightly different, bunkai/oyo is different. The basic bunkai for beginners follows the main conceptual explanation; that it is actually a punch. Once they understand the concepts more, bunkai/oyo for the nukite is, that after parrying and counter striking with the shuto uke's that immediately precede it (to one or multiple opponents), that 1) it's an open hand strike to the eyes, throat, or groin while elbow striking another opponent behind you (hikite) , or 2) it's a lead-in to a takedown similar to a judo one arm shoulder throw (ippon seoinage I think it's called in judo). Bunkai/oyo are almost limitless, but those are the 2 best that I've learned. In the case of the takedown, the nukite represents the movement of your hand going under your opponent's arm/shoulder (another reason why we don't extend fully for that particular nukite waza).

[Wastelander]

The first thing I would mention is that the Pinan kata aren't a great place to be looking for the original intent of any technique, for the very reason that CredoTe mentions--they were made for school children. To see the techniques in the proper context, you should look at them as they exist in the older kata that they came from. In this case, Kusanku--some versions of which do it on both sides, although most do it on one.

That said, I completely agree with CredoTe that it doesn't really matter if the kata does it on one side or on both, since you practice it on both sides on a partner. For this technique, as with most techniques in kata, there are many ways to use it. You might use it as a throw if you do it against a right hand punch, but if you started to do the same thing against a left hand punch, you might use it as an arm lock instead. Same movement, different application--just like "wax on, wax off"

[sensei8]

Thus far, you've received some very solid answers to your question!!

Why no mirror of said technique? Because there just isn't!! The one and only said technique suffices the context of said kata.

Everything isn't mirrored in every kata because they're not intended to be so. However, everything CAN be mirrored if need be from the Bunkai/Oyo context.

Should it be mirrored? Better be sure that any mirror has merit!!

Any movement shouldn't be performed just to perform it. Should the syllabus call for this and that and so on and so forth, then those must be addressed without any reservation. Beyond the syllabus, there's the Oyo; the discoveries outside of the known Bunkai, and the practitioner, and no one else can determine it's effectiveness. Why? Because what works for one practitioner in Bunkai/Oyo doesn't always work for another.

The spear hand in question CAN be just that, a spear hand. No more and no less. Why? It's an effective technique, other wise it wouldn't be in said syllabus. However, syllabus aside, what a technique APPEARS to be from the outside, isn't always what it's meant to be.

A block to a karateka that hasn't explored said block is just a block. However, in Kata 101, that block ISN'T a block at all; it's taught to be a deflection, which is what the "block" is actually doing.

Nonetheless, that same "block" which is now a deflection now becomes something different, a throw or a joint manipulation or a pressure point.

Let's look at that movement again at the timestamp that you've pointed out. Now that we've looked at it, what did you notice/see? What techniques/movements did Kanazawa Sensei do LEADING up to said spear?

Going up the embusen, Kanazawa Sensei does 2 knife hand blocks, if that's what his intentions are, but for now, we'll call them just that. Now, look at what his left hand is doing right after the second knife hand block. It's a pressing block, which can be used to open-up the target more for his spear hand strike/thrust.

I want you to pay attention to those two segmental movements alone. PRESSING BLOCK into the SPEAR HAND STRIKE/THRUST at the Chudan/middle level!!

Just what, turn on your Bunkai/Oyo brain, CAN those two segmental movements relationally do? Why is Kanazawa Sensei leaving the pressing block right under his spear hand arm? Why there? Why not somewhere else?

Where could he place it instead? How about to his immediate left side?

His next movements after said spear don't help much because his 270-degree turn to the right leads into another series of knife hand blocks from a back stance.

Separate transitional movements all together, imho!! No relationship, other than they follow after said spear.

However, to step away from Kata 101 for just a moment, that 270 degree turn CAN be a throw. In that, the pressing block is now turned into a grasp, and so is the spear hand. Kanazawa Sensei went from back stance to forward-leg stance. Why?

To transition more easily into another back stance and knife hand block? Said kata has a lot of that, doesn't it?! In the essence of Oyo, the possibility can entertain the throw, as I've mentioned.

Everything in Kata and in Bunkai/Oyo depends on what's happening before as well as what's happening afterword AND what's happening at the moment of any said technique. There's a reason and a purpose, so that nothing is by chance.

Mirrors can't exist unless we explore BOTH sides of any equation and unless we ask the questions of ourselves. Kanazawa Sensei could've mirrored the entire kata, but to do so isn't necessary in the realm of teaching Bunkai/Oyo.

Discoveries are the sole propriety of the practitioner! And these moments can't be discovered unless the questions are probed over and over again, and then some!!

The Bunkai/Oyo that I've laid out above is only a possibility, for the time being!! Now it's up to you to make said discoveries for yourself. Now, no one owns any Bunkai/Oyo; no one!! Take my possibility; work it, try it, drill it, tear it apart, and do whatever else is necessary so that my possibility now becomes your possibility. Don't discard it until you've worked it over and over again. However, when it doesn't work, that's because not everything works for everyone else. It works for me, but it might not work for someone else.

Why no mirror? The summation of "why" is to the summation of "because". Imagine how long a kata would be if every technique was mirrored?! Any mirror just isn't necessary in the context of any kata.

[cheesefrysamurai]

Thus far, you've received some very solid answers to your question!!

Why no mirror of said technique? Because there just isn't!! The one and only said technique suffices the context of said kata.

Everything isn't mirrored in every kata because they're not intended to be so. However, everything CAN be mirrored if need be from the Bunkai/Oyo context.

Should it be mirrored? Better be sure that any mirror has merit!!

Any movement shouldn't be performed just to perform it. Should the syllabus call for this and that and so on and so forth, then those must be addressed without any reservation. Beyond the syllabus, there's the Oyo; the discoveries outside of the known Bunkai, and the practitioner, and no one else can determine it's effectiveness. Why? Because what works for one practitioner in Bunkai/Oyo doesn't always work for another.

The spear hand in question CAN be just that, a spear hand. No more and no less. Why? It's an effective technique, other wise it wouldn't be in said syllabus. However, syllabus aside, what a technique APPEARS to be from the outside, isn't always what it's meant to be.

A block to a karateka that hasn't explored said block is just a block. However, in Kata 101, that block ISN'T a block at all; it's taught to be a deflection, which is what the "block" is actually doing.

Nonetheless, that same "block" which is now a deflection now becomes something different, a throw or a joint manipulation or a pressure point.

Let's look at that movement again at the timestamp that you've pointed out. Now that we've looked at it, what did you notice/see? What techniques/movements did Kanazawa Sensei do LEADING up to said spear?

Going up the embusen, Kanazawa Sensei does 2 knife hand blocks, if that's what his intentions are, but for now, we'll call them just that. Now, look at what his left hand is doing right after the second knife hand block. It's a pressing block, which can be used to open-up the target more for his spear hand strike/thrust.

I want you to pay attention to those two segmental movements alone. PRESSING BLOCK into the SPEAR HAND STRIKE/THRUST at the Chudan/middle level!!

Just what, turn on your Bunkai/Oyo brain, CAN those two segmental movements relationally do? Why is Kanazawa Sensei leaving the pressing block right under his spear hand arm? Why there? Why not somewhere else?

Where could he place it instead? How about to his immediate left side?

His next movements after said spear don't help much because his 270-degree turn to the right leads into another series of knife hand blocks from a back stance.

Separate transitional movements all together, imho!! No relationship, other than they follow after said spear.

However, to step away from Kata 101 for just a moment, that 270 degree turn CAN be a throw. In that, the pressing block is now turned into a grasp, and so is the spear hand. Kanazawa Sensei went from back stance to forward-leg stance. Why?

To transition more easily into another back stance and knife hand block? Said kata has a lot of that, doesn't it?! In the essence of Oyo, the possibility can entertain the throw, as I've mentioned.

Everything in Kata and in Bunkai/Oyo depends on what's happening before as well as what's happening afterword AND what's happening at the moment of any said technique. There's a reason and a purpose, so that nothing is by chance.

Mirrors can't exist unless we explore BOTH sides of any equation and unless we ask the questions of ourselves. Kanazawa Sensei could've mirrored the entire kata, but to do so isn't necessary in the realm of teaching Bunkai/Oyo.

Discoveries are the sole propriety of the practitioner! And these moments can't be discovered unless the questions are probed over and over again, and then some!!

The Bunkai/Oyo that I've laid out above is only a possibility, for the time being!! Now it's up to you to make said discoveries for yourself. Now, no one owns any Bunkai/Oyo; no one!! Take my possibility; work it, try it, drill it, tear it apart, and do whatever else is necessary so that my possibility now becomes your possibility. Don't discard it until you've worked it over and over again. However, when it doesn't work, that's because not everything works for everyone else. It works for me, but it might not work for someone else.

Why no mirror? The summation of "why" is to the summation of "because". Imagine how long a kata would be if every technique was mirrored?! Any mirror just isn't necessary in the context of any kata.

And thats why he gets the big bucks

[ShoriKid]

In depth reply below. I want to say thanks to everyone for contributing to this thread so far. Just because I'm not quoting from everyone, yet, doesn't mean I haven't read, considered and examined what has been said. I love getting feed back from my fellow karateka here. I don't think there is a lot of separation between what I look at and what is said here.

Now, I used the Heian kata for reference. I know that it was geared toward school children (middle school I believe) and pulled largely from more advanced kata. I picked it because it's easy to reference, most every karateka has a version of it and will have trained it. The Lingua Franca or karate if you will. Secondly it seems to appear in the same sort of technical sequence even in more advanced kata. A series of knife hands then the spear hand. As you'll see below, I have an application for the technique, and I think it is very workable, however it breaks a rule or two that I generally apply to bunkai/application in kata. Mostly that important and useful things happen often in kata. That you will "mirror" movements showing that they work on the left and right side of the attacker. And I posed the question in class as a thought exercise trying to make them really dig in and question what movements do. I posted this here for much the same reason. And I very much wanted to see what the karateka of the forums would have to say as well. I think we're pretty blessed to have good, honest and sharp minds here. With all that said, I replied to Sensei8's comment because it seems to contain much of what others have said. And to be a little old school, out of respect for the senior karateka, address him first.

Thus far, you've received some very solid answers to your question!!

Why no mirror of said technique? Because there just isn't!! The one and only said technique suffices the context of said kata.

Everything isn't mirrored in every kata because they're not intended to be so. However, everything CAN be mirrored if need be from the Bunkai/Oyo context.

Should it be mirrored? Better be sure that any mirror has merit!!

That was sort of the point I was trying to communicate with my question to my dojo mates and here as well. Repeating technique is the originators way of saying "Hey, pay attention! This is important and really useful!" To me, no repeat says it's useful, because it's in the kata, but much, much less likely to happen in an encounter.

Any movement shouldn't be performed just to perform it. Should the syllabus call for this and that and so on and so forth, then those must be addressed without any reservation. Beyond the syllabus, there's the Oyo; the discoveries outside of the known Bunkai, and the practitioner, and no one else can determine it's effectiveness. Why? Because what works for one practitioner in Bunkai/Oyo doesn't always work for another.

Absolutely there shouldn't be material just for materials sake. That creates clutter in your training and is wasting time that could be spent working and refining useful skills. Both the open application and the hidden or transitional need to be trained, I agree. And somethings don't work for everyone, that has always been the case and, I think, a major reason we see a proliferation of styles today. Everyone was trying to find what worked for them and codify it.

The spear hand in question CAN be just that, a spear hand. No more and no less. Why? It's an effective technique, other wise it wouldn't be in said syllabus. However, syllabus aside, what a technique APPEARS to be from the outside, isn't always what it's meant to be.

A spear hand can work, but I feel it is a very lower percentage technique in most situations. The grip/finger conditioning to use a spear hand reliably is something most people don't do. As a push/short strike to soft tissue it can be used, but you have to be careful with it.

A block to a karateka that hasn't explored said block is just a block. However, in Kata 101, that block ISN'T a block at all; it's taught to be a deflection, which is what the "block" is actually doing.

Nonetheless, that same "block" which is now a deflection now becomes something different, a throw or a joint manipulation or a pressure point.

There are so many levels to the simple "block" taught in karate the only shame is that very often only the outer and most basic form is shown and understood. We cover the block, the deflections, the joint lock, pressure point (bonus points always!) and striking application of "block" movements. A good karateka should never be satisfied with just the surface.

Let's look at that movement again at the timestamp that you've pointed out. Now that we've looked at it, what did you notice/see? What techniques/movements did Kanazawa Sensei do LEADING up to said spear?

Going up the embusen, Kanazawa Sensei does 2 knife hand blocks, if that's what his intentions are, but for now, we'll call them just that. Now, look at what his left hand is doing right after the second knife hand block. It's a pressing block, which can be used to open-up the target more for his spear hand strike/thrust.

I want you to pay attention to those two segmental movements alone. PRESSING BLOCK into the SPEAR HAND STRIKE/THRUST at the Chudan/middle level!!

Just what, turn on your Bunkai/Oyo brain, CAN those two segmental movements relationally do? Why is Kanazawa Sensei leaving the pressing block right under his spear hand arm? Why there? Why not somewhere else?

Where could he place it instead? How about to his immediate left side?

His next movements after said spear don't help much because his 270-degree turn to the right leads into another series of knife hand blocks from a back stance.

Separate transitional movements all together, imho!! No relationship, other than they follow after said spear.

However, to step away from Kata 101 for just a moment, that 270 degree turn CAN be a throw. In that, the pressing block is now turned into a grasp, and so is the spear hand. Kanazawa Sensei went from back stance to forward-leg stance. Why?

Big chunk here and a lot to look at. Those are, mostly, the same sort of questions I ask on every movement. Why does your weight transition this way or that? What movement proceeds? What movement follows? What possibilities do the transitions open up to you? It's all part of the process that you have to apply to start peeling back the layers of kata. Part of why I asked my question, here and in the dojo, is that I'm not satisfied with the technique that it is yielding. The pressing block into the spear hand is alright, but it's not as strong as what I've come to expect from what Okinawan karate.

My own application is this, starting from the prior "knife hand block". In response to a left or right hand punch (left puts you on the inside, right on the outside) you have deflected, checked the attack with the transitional movement from the prior "block" and then trapped the attacking limb, and struck the neck/head with the completed "block". Your left hand then seizes the shoulder or hair for the "press block" and you use the shifting weight to front stance to help with this movement as it breaks their balance and you advance with the "spear hand", the lowering of the stance and the attack height further aids in the movement. The spear hand, as I often apply it here is a very oblique palm heel aimed at the side of the base of the skull or jaw line. The transitional movement as you prepare to turn the 270 has application too. Either having missed or failed to finish with the "spear hand"(palm strike), the striking hand now wraps the head to provide leverage and a reference point to aid in targeting the left elbow strike as you step in and start the weight transition for the turn. I hate trying to translate physical movement into text, but there it is. A bit of precursor and a bit of post movement transition to connect the applications to the kata.

To transition more easily into another back stance and knife hand block? Said kata has a lot of that, doesn't it?! In the essence of Oyo, the possibility can entertain the throw, as I've mentioned.

Maybe, but the stubborn part of me that did Pinan before Heian says it isn't that hard to go from an up right natural stance into a cat stance. But, those were the weight transitions that were first burned into my body. The Up/Down, In/Out of Matsubayashi Ryu are my first love and color at lot of what I do. Can that transition be a throw? Absolutely! I tell our students to always be looking for a throw in turns and transitions. The Earth is a handy weapon to hit your attacker with. It's always there, doesn't break and gravity will help you find it!

Everything in Kata and in Bunkai/Oyo depends on what's happening before as well as what's happening afterword AND what's happening at the moment of any said technique. There's a reason and a purpose, so that nothing is by chance.

Mirrors can't exist unless we explore BOTH sides of any equation and unless we ask the questions of ourselves. Kanazawa Sensei could've mirrored the entire kata, but to do so isn't necessary in the realm of teaching Bunkai/Oyo.

Yes, very much you have to look at the before, after and during of any technique. Separated out into single segments, many things we do in kata don't make any sense and have no real applications. However, put into context, given their surrounding movements they suddenly become very, very awesome techniques and combinations and movements. The reason I look for the repetition is that it's a great big sign by the kata originator saying "Hey! Look here, pay attention, this is important!". It shows you that you will have to learn this movement for both sides of the body.

I see two big things from the spear hand that I had in mind and all the feed back here seem to re-enforce to me. That the spear hand strike is a very special tool that only works in limited situations. It only appears on one side of the body, almost never in a series or two, three or four spear hands and not more than a couple of times in more advanced kata. Secondly, you must have control of the body of your attacker to make the spear hand work. The hikate of Matsubayashi Ryu, with the short arm means you have grips and are in close, the press block and step in of Shotokan tell me this. Gojushiho seems to disagree, but that is an advanced kata that I haven't gotten to work with a lot so, in it's own context, it may lead me to the same thought. Or something totally different.

Discoveries are the sole propriety of the practitioner! And these moments can't be discovered unless the questions are probed over and over again, and then some!!

The Bunkai/Oyo that I've laid out above is only a possibility, for the time being!! Now it's up to you to make said discoveries for yourself. Now, no one owns any Bunkai/Oyo; no one!! Take my possibility; work it, try it, drill it, tear it apart, and do whatever else is necessary so that my possibility now becomes your possibility. Don't discard it until you've worked it over and over again. However, when it doesn't work, that's because not everything works for everyone else. It works for me, but it might not work for someone else.

Why no mirror? The summation of "why" is to the summation of "because". Imagine how long a kata would be if every technique was mirrored?! Any mirror just isn't necessary in the context of any kata.

Many thanks Sensei8, for the time and thought of your reply. I don't think I'm disagreeing with you, or many others here for the majority of what I think on the kata. I just demand that my kata applications give me a lot of mileage. Corner case uses get trained last and least, and I don't like that. The quest for knowledge of any kind is never ending, and when we stop asking questions and stop digging for deeper truths, we stop learning. That is why I press hard to have good, solid applications to show to my students. It isn't that I want "one true way", it's that I want them to have a solid foundation from which to work. I like to teach a base line application, not just the surface application. And from that base line, give students a process that helped me get to those application so they can spring board from there to their own discoveries.

It is absolutely true that what we discover in our kata is our own. And those things we find on our own that work for us are the best and dearest of applications and the things that make karate a part of us. Or maybe they make us part of the karate. Wrapping one around another until you can't well separate what you have make of your karate and what your karate has made of you.

[sensei8]

I was hoping that my post was helpful for you, and that I addressed your question(s) properly. If not, I deeply apologise for that.

My post was basic, and I purposely avoided going really deep in the possibilities of interpretations because of the venue that we're subjected to; the written word versus the face to face venue.

[BlackKnight]

The first thing I would mention is that the Pinan kata aren't a great place to be looking for the original intent of any technique, for the very reason that CredoTe mentions--they were made for school children.

I'm going to have to slightly disagree here.

I get the impression that just because Itosu invented the Pinan (Heian) kata for school children it appears to me most do not put much value in their importance.

While they may have been made for school children the move is going to be the same, but the application changes.

Iha sensei of Shorin Ryu Shidokan once told us there is a mudansha (lower grade) bunkai and yudansha (black belt holder) bunkai. For example there is a move in Pinan Godan that is exactly the same in Chinto. While teaching it to the lower grades you teach the "basic" bunkai which is a block and counter, When it gets to the advance kata the application taught is an advance tuite technique. By then the student has a better mastery of the moves.

From my training and experience what made the kata much better suited for school children was their length and lack of teaching the advance applications. In other words, they are much shorter by about a third of the advance kata.

If any of you have taught children you know that their attention span is much shorter. Also they were being taught in the school system with a limited amount of time.

Here's something else, use the Pinan kata as your basics like basic math and multiplication. It's the foundation to the advance techniques. It opens that door. Without it, it makes it that much harder.

Anyway, my humble opinion. I think everyone here has given some outstanding advice.

[ShoriKid]

I was hoping that my post was helpful for you, and that I addressed your question(s) properly. If not, I deeply apologise for that.

My post was basic, and I purposely avoided going really deep in the possibilities of interpretations because of the venue that we're subjected to; the written word versus the face to face venue.

It was helpful sir, very much. I gave a detailed reply not because it was not helpful, but because it was. I get a bit long winded on things I love, like karate. I apologize if it came across as anything other than a respectful.

What we could spend hours typing we could clarify with a few minutes on the dojo floor. Much respect Sensei, thank you again for the reply.