"What's the Point in Forms?" and other things

[Kyle-san]

Who here knows what, at least, one move is for in their hyung? Do you just learn the "motions" or do you learn what each move (or combo of moves) is for? I'll leave it at that for now.

 

It's been habit for me to know what every move in a kata/pattern/hyung/form is when I'm learning it. This goes back to when I first started in martial arts and my Shotokan class would, ever two weeks or so, break up into groups and learn what the moves in the kata were meant for. We then had to demonstrate our understanding of it as a group to the rest of the class.

 

It just makes sense to know what you're doing, then it completely compliments your sparring by, as others have mentioned, teaching you how certian moves can fit together and giving you better balance, power and control.

[Thai_Kick]

For real fighting you would have to travel to China, for the full contact no pads events, where if you know anything, the internal styles of Tai Chi, Ba Gua and Hsing I are holding the majority of the titles.

 

What event is this? Do fighters from outside of China compete in these tournaments? I would bet not cause if they were allowed or knew about it then many MMA fighter (Gracies, Frank Shamrock, Vanderlei Silva...) would be competing. Is their any info, news, web sites, artics on these tournaments that people can get a hold of? if so then please share!

 

 

I am sure that you will dig up this whole thing about UFC. An arguement that we have ALL heard a million times before. I have no doubt that there are some great modern style martial artists out there. But UFC, is not the battle field, in which arts like BJJ were created. Not all moves are aloud. Now you will probably say that NO traditional stylist have won a UFC. I would say to you that most of the best artists would not be seen dead at something like that.

 

Since when was BJJ created for MMA events? Kensai MMA (Pride, UFC, UCC...) is a sport, so like any other sport to protect the competitors they have rules, as a result some moves are not allowed (biting, kicking/punching the groin, eye racks...) come on Kensai what martial artists practice biting, kicking/punching to the groin, eye racks... with FULL INTENT, POWER and SPEED on other people? NONE! You know DAME well any professional MMA fighter would send you to the hospital of morgue, so give it a rest.

 

Now why wouldn't the best Martial Artists be seen dead in the UFC or Pride..? OH no, WAIT, many name comes to mind ---"The Black Dragon" Ron Van Clief--- his a legendary 10th degree master of Gojo Karate, he fought Royce Gracie in UFC 4 and lost to Royce. Many famous and respected martial artist have promoted and been a part of UFC and other MMA event like Don "the dragon" Wilson, Bill "superfoot" Wallace, Katie Long, Chuck Norris which also trains in BJJ under the Gracies, Shamrock and his crew, the Gracies and MANY OTHERS.

 

Kensai you don't like MMA events, that's fine, but DO NOT PUT THE SPORT DOWN unless you have the guts to compete!

[KickChick]

To get back on track here....

 

The point many instructors seem to miss is what patterns are actually intended for. Some schools

 

breeze through patterns practice by simply just going through the motions with regards to learning the movements but not learning the meaning and applications.Forms/katas are sometimes taught to get moves down correctly (to advance to the next belt rank) rather than to understand its purpose.

 

When I do Chon-ji (white belt beginner form) I do it with much more intensity now (at my 2nd dan level) than I ever did as a white belt because I understand how important basics and repetition is to make a move effective, and I also know the purpose behind the form.

 

What is missing from most TKD training, is that of pattern application which I believed is stressed more in Shotokan. Forms should be practiced alone, broken down as fundamental exercises and practiced in pairs or groups that allow the applications of each move to be felt and used against a real opponent. Ah, there's the "point"!

 

How many people have reached black belt in TKD or won trophies for forms competitions but do not know the nerve strike contained in the Toi-Gye form, or the release techniques from Chung-Gun or

 

Po-Eun or even the pressure points in Chon-Ji... and countless other applications.

 

Traditional teaching of martial arts is quite far removed from what many instructors teach today.... and maybe that is why it seems "pointless" to some.

 

If you apply form applications as they should be taught you will have a formidable arsenal of strikes, kicks, locks, breaks and release techniques.

 

To know the various application of movements makes forms practice not only more enjoyable and less "pointless", but more realistic and utilized as a method of unarmed self-defense training.

[Kensai]

Excuse me Thai_Kick. I cant remember attacking you in such away. I was merely stating the facts, and if you had read what I wrote. I said that there are some great modern martial artists out there. I have no doubt that they could send me to hospital, did I ever say that I could defeat one? NOPE! Could you?

 

To my knowledge there are no Links to such tornuments. Mainly because they dont want to draw attention to themselves. Also I cant remember where I put the sport down, I only said that NOT ALL moves are aloud, for example small joint manipulation.

 

Also for me to have an opiniuon on something I have to compete, so if I have a opiniuon on football, I have to play professional football. Or opiniuons on politics I have to be a politician. lol. Funny.

 

I have no doubt in my mind in the abilitys of such men, not one, did I say I did. NO. i think perhaps you are reading what is not there.

 

Kick Chick,

 

As I understand it, many shotokan practioners are turning to shotokai. Shotokan, over the past few years, has gone on a decline, in that it really teachs lots of drills. Only really focusing on the kata for grading. Shotokai focus's more on the Bunkai so reveling more of the secrets of Shotokan, other than just simple drills.

 

I agree that kata are only really apprieciated over time. Its one of those things that you never like at the beginning, I know that I would rather Kumite. But now I like it alot more. Although I dont really have any in Aikido, I miss them alot from my Shotokan days.

 

Take Care.

[karatekid1975]

I agree, Kickchick. Most dojangs don't teach this (applications of forms). I know Shotokan does, cause I dabbled in it with Ann. My TSD instructor also showed us what the moves are for. But, my TKD dojang doesn't. But that doesn't mean I won't ask "why" and "how" or do some "digging" on my own. If I teach a form to a lower rank or help a fellow green belt with one, I tell them to pretend there is an attacker (or I actually do attack them) and tell them to do the move. If they are not familiar with it, I'll tell them first. If I don't know, I go find out

[Karateka_latino]

To me, the problem is that many master doesn't know the meaning and doesn't know the techniques the forms teach you..

 

Most of the Dojo's i know, they practice Forms mostly for tournament competitions...

 

that's why Kata can be seeing as useless, because it is, if you only train for competitions without knowing the proper Bunkai of the movements.

[shotochem]

IMO kata are a textbook of techniques. I believe they were created to pass down these tecnniques and to provide a means to practice these techniques. As for Bunkai (applications to forms) there are no set applications. I believe they were created to inspire creativity in the useage of techniques. As you advance in skill and knowledge your interpretation of forms will change as you do. It is a way of helping the person adapt what works for them and to see if they can effectivly apply it.

 

Just my thoughts....