"What's the Point in Forms?" and other things

[DeeLovesKarate]

Recently I heard a young boy who takes karate at my school say to his friends, " Yeah, I'm a blue belt. I'm going to quit once I get my blackbelt. There's no reason to stay longer."

 

While practicing kanku dai outside before class, a friend said to me, " What's the point in forms? After all, you can't do a form on an attacker. "

 

The very same friend had recently asked my to demonstrate what to do if someone had a gun. Logic did not work with him, even as I showed him the motions on an invisable attacker, he still failed to believe that my knowledge of forms and other tecniques would do me any good.

 

Has anyone else had this happen? With a doubtful friend, or stranger? I'm curious as to how many of you have had the ::cough:: pleasure of dealing with these ::cough, cough:: people.

 

Grrr,

 

Dee

[Kensai]

Ah yes, I have encountered such people. There are alot of them out there, especially in the West.

 

Its mainly due to the ignorance of most people, especially to anything that sounds different.

 

My Sensei was doing a conference in Scotland with Sensei Abbe Kenshiro. When my Sensei went to the car park to bring the car around to the front of the building. (As my Sensei was a Unchideshi, he basically had to do all remendal tasks). 17 men approach Sensei, the basically told him that Aikido did not work and that he had dedicated his life to nothing. All Sensei remembers is that they all attacked, then, they all lay on the floor around him. He is not an aggresive man, and in this case he had to use what he had learnt.

 

But yea, some people are like that. Unfortunately its not just non martial artists that attack our styles, its other martial artists. I had problems with other Martial artists at Uni. The ones that did do something and were soundly beaten, became my friends. So good can come out of it sometimes.

 

Take Care

[Thai_Kick]

"I think the highest state of martial art, in application, must have no absolute form. And, to tackle pattern A with pattern B may not be absolutely correct. I feel that martial art should not be limited in a circle. That will reproduce in the students a wrong idea, thinking that a certain pattern will have the same result in fighting as in practice. "

 

-Bruce Lee-

 

"Jeet Kune Do rejects all restrictions imposed by forms and formality and emphasizes the clever use of the mind and body to defend and attack. "

 

-Bruce Lee-

 

I agree with Bruce Lee it makes alot of sence.

[omnifinite]

I just don't bother telling anyone I train unless I'm close to them. Better for people to underestimate you anyway.

[G95champ]

IMO kata is the most important part of karate. It teaches you everything from SD to balance. You can work on speed, power, techinque, breathing, endurance all at your own pace. You don't need a person to train with. You can do them anywhere and at anytime you see fit. Show me a person who is really good at his kata and I'll show you a really good martial artists.

 

There is a differance in a martial artist and a fighter. There are a lot of good fighters who can't do kata. However every good Martial Artist that can do kata will be a good fighter.

[Bon]

he still failed to believe that my knowledge of forms and other tecniques would do me any good

 

Very nicely put. That knowledge is absolutely useless unless you know how to apply it. Knowledge is not power, knowledge applied is power. If you don't spar, then that knowledge is basically futile. While you are off doing your pretty katas, I and many others will be fighting. Who's going to win a fight ?

 

'Traditional arts' ... That's ALL they are, tradition. There are new and improved arts, techniques, ways of training which are much more effective.

[koreantiger81]

ARe kata's useful? I believe some people link sparring with katas, thus coming to the conclusion, that katas are useless.

 

Yes, kata's will teach you balance, coordination, and proper form which may help develop your sparring abilities. However, to effectively an efficiently learn how to spar, you must actually engage in the activity of sparring...As Bruce Lee says,

 

"I think the highest state of martial art, in application, must have no absolute form. And, to tackle pattern A with pattern B may not be absolutely correct. "

 

I believe katas are useless if you link it to improving your sparring; however, that doesn't mean katas should be removed from martial arts. You have to keep in mind that martial arts is not just about sparring. I believe this era views martial arts as a sport or a fighting activity. The tradition and the true meaning of martial arts has been forgotten as people emphasize the sparring aspect of martial arts. Thus topics such as this thread is constantly debated among so called "martial artists"...I believe that martial arts is not just about fighting. It's not just about self-defense. Practicing katas, may not efficiently improve your sparring, but they are not useless. Katas are an integral part of martial arts, because doing katas requires discipline and your only opponent is yourself. (It requires discipline to position yourself in low stances and do unfamiliar movements, but once you master it you gain satisfication and confidence in your abilities.) It's a martial ballet. If you want to consider yourself a martial artist, you must be educated in the area of martial philosophy, sparring, katas, culture, and history of your martial art...As Jhoon Rhee says, "Without philosophy, it's a sport."

 

By just emphasizing sparring, you are only practicing a sport like boxing...It becomes a martial sport.

[SBN Doug]

Everyone likes to quote Bruce when discussing kata/hyung. However, not every martial art's forms are used the way he was referencing. He was right to say that the forms of kung fu where you followed specific patterns while fighting were not efficient. However, in most Korean arts, they are not used this way.

 

As stated before, we use them to teach balance, power, control, and to show how different techniques can be used in combinations. We by no means expect a practicioner to perform a form while in a fight, that would be silly. We also spar, so that the student can practice using the different techniques in a fight situation. Moving in circles, keeping their guard up, and striking with combinations of at least three techniques are only a few of what this teaches them.

 

Forms are not usless, but they should not be used as a substitute for sparring either. Who will win? The better fighter will win. Not because he/she does or does not train with forms.

[Kensai]

I dont want to get into an arguement Bon. But I will put this concept to you. Traditional Arts were created some 2000 years ago. Starting in either Greece in the form of Pankration or in India. These arts then travelled to China, creating Amazing styles like Shaolin and Hsing I to name but a few. They then made there jump to Korea and Japan. So was born Jujutsu, Judo, Iaido, Aikido, TKD and TSD etc. I would now like you to think back and tell me what ALL these nations had in common.

 

To save you thinking I will tell you. It was unfortuntely WAR. These arts were created during possibly the HARDEST time in Eastern Asia, formed in fire and blood all the techniques that did not work were lost, as the practioners of them lay dead and decomposing in the battle field.

 

Whats the point in this you ask. I assume you do BJJ? People who do BJJ tend to unfortunately have this opinuon. These forms/kata were created to faciliate learning and understanding. The true understanding of ALL traditional styles, even soft and hard traditonal styles, is to produce flowing techniques from a calm mind. I would agree that you need sparring in the way that KSN said. To compliment, but not to REPLACE Kata.

 

I am sure that you will dig up this whole thing about UFC. An arguement that we have ALL heard a million times before. I have no doubt that there are some great modern style martial artists out there. But UFC, is not the battle field, in which arts like BJJ were created. Not all moves are aloud. Now you will probably say that NO traditional stylist have won a UFC. I would say to you that most of the best artists would not be seen dead at something like that.

 

For real fighting you would have to travel to China, for the full contact no pads events, where if you know anything, the internal styles of Tai Chi, Ba Gua and Hsing I are holding the majority of the titles.

 

But I would love for you to tell me, how you can improve on prefection? I am all for evolution to techniques, but not a revolution, getting rid of the core of many styles. IMO, its like giving a child a gun. When you dont teach some form of mental martial arts training, this in many cases comes from kata, hyung, form, people get into trouble.

 

"'Traditional arts' ... That's ALL they are, tradition. There are new and improved arts, techniques, ways of training which are much more effective."

 

So for you to say that there more are "effective" arts out there than traditional, then the traditional ones are being taught wrong. I would also say that it has been done before, it is simply sealing ideas from lots of styles and created a hybrid, again I would agree that this is important as styles do need to evolve. For you to knock traditional styles, is possibly a little fool hardy.

 

Traditional arts were created to kill, to maim, to police and combat, but also to reflect, meditate and calm, to be a great martial artist one needs both.

 

Take Care

[karatekid1975]

I didn't wanna get into this agrument again, but I noticed one thing that WASN'T mentioned about learning hyung. I have a guestion for the board: Who here knows what, at least, one move is for in their hyung? Do you just learn the "motions" or do you learn what each move (or combo of moves) is for? I'll leave it at that for now.