Rethinking my Views.....a Bit

[tallgeese]

Hey all, just wanted to say a couple of things given a recent experience I've just had. I've been busy lately between work and preparation for a seminar I was honored to teach at and and be part of (more in another post about that later.) It's kept me tied up and away from checking in as much as I normally do.

However, it did give me the opportunity to look into some specific other arts and reformulate some of my long help hypothesis'. Everyone here knows that I am not a proponent of kata. In fact, I'm usually very outspoken as a critic of the training modality. I think I've got good arguments for this, and everyone who has been here long enough has heard them enough that I don't need to go over them again

That said, I had the chance to really get a great overview of Pekiti Tersia Kali at this event. I've danced around the outside of the JKD/ FMA circles for some time but this was my first chance to really get to see some in depth looks at this particular form of Kali.

I was highly impressed.

One of the core elements of this style is it's progression from form, to drilling, to application. I was most taken by it's focus on form. The stress that the instructor placed on this sort of predetermined model of repetition was high and at the core of skill development.

So, I am grudgingly giving way on the kata argument and an big enough to admit that it might have a place. To see it utilized so dynamically for skill acquisition was a game changer for me. See, not so stubborn to admit that there might be other options

That said, there are some notable differences in the way PTK approaches its form work and the most common methods of kata work in America. First, the form is never the end nor the goal. Its a way to gain skill for drilling (which we all know is where I spend the bulk of time.)

Secondly, there is no "hidden technique" in the form. Everything is pretty much there to see. The trick is to see the application across ranges. No moving textbooks though, what you see is what you get. This I like much more than the bunkai concept. Rather than reconstruct technique you're only matching bio-mechanical advantageous attacks to range. No out of order, or "this was meant to be..." arguments. It's pure, and simple at an application level.

The finite matters of technical control, that's of course built in, and not obvious to the student. But that's true of any form of instruction and why instructors are so critical.

Last, it's very dynamic in it's movement and leads quickly to drilling and application. No extended period of form for forms sake. Movement is mimicking actual combat speed and footwork, not artificial pattern. For me, that's a huge time saver and learning point. I'd call them "organic" where I always felt that traditional kata felt "artificial."

Now, before the bashing starts, I am not saying that I feel PTK is better or worse than anything else. Just that I saw a real difference in how they approach form (kata) than other schools I've seen, BUT what I did take away is that there is a place in training for forms (do I have to say it...kata ) in martial arts learning.

Now, everyone can sort out their "I told you so" responses and that's fine. And I am going to figure out how I can work some time to train PTK into my schedule.

And- it's good to have time again to be around.

[SteyrAUG]

Congratulations on discovering a new component to your practice of martial arts.

My reasons for learning, practicing and teaching have all undergone changes over the last few decades. As "I" change, I always find something new that the martial arts has to offer which I hadn't given strong consideration to before.

Just another reason I will always be a martial artist.

[Wastelander]

Having seen some videos of PTK (and related arts) forms, as well as their applications, I actually see a lot of parallels with karate. I, personally, suspect that karate kata originally looked a lot more like the forms of Indonesian martial arts, and have been made more formalized and rigid over time. I could be wrong, of course

[sensei8]

Kata can be an educational element as well as discouraging. Kata is a way to gain skills for drilling, and that includes Bunkai/Oyo. As you've stated...the form is never the end nor the goal", and that's how, imho, it should be viewed because kata isn't the only effective way to train.

As I matured in the MA as well as in my betterment, I knew that there's no such thing as a "hidden technique(s) in any Kata. Any that's because Bunkai is set within the curriculum/syllabus, while Oyo is self-discovery, and that discovery never ends. Oyo opens the "Aha" factor!

It's possible that whomever's shown you Bunkai/Oyo has tainted what many proponents of Kata love; the discovery of effective applied knowledge as the so called onion is peeled away one layer at a time, and in that the layers allowed introspection. I'd love to show you how we approach Bunkai/Oyo, I believe that you'd come away quite pleased across the board.

Kata isn't just intrinsic; it's far beyond it being just a thing. No more than any other training modality! Kata without application is meaningless!!

I've no ambiguity, and neither does Kata, if it's approached in a sensible and effective manner.

I've no inclination to say "I told you so", it would serve no valuable purpose, and the respect that I have for you wouldn't permit me to do so! I echo SteverAUG wholeheartedly...Congratulations on discovering a new component to your practice of the MA.

[andym]

Interesting to hear tallgeese. Viewing the concept of form training from the point a view of a different linage, has shed light on the concept of form training and opened it up for you. This is a good thing. Sadly, most reject the concept of form training as an article of faith , rather than as a result of a rational process. The article of faith approach has lead to the belief that the very concept of form training is invalid. A sadly immature stand point.

[jaypo]

I can tell you from personal experience that I believe Kata training is essential to a true martial artist. When I learn a kata, I enjoy learning the "hidden" tecnhniques in them. The throws, takedowns, kill strikes, etc. And the way I apply them is in my sparring. I look for openings to use those techniques. And in doing so, I see other openings that I wouldn't have noticed before. So kata changes my approach to sparring in that way.

[sensei8]

The term "Hidden", as we teach Kata, doesn't, and shouldn't, mean that said techniques are for the higher Dan ranks, as I've heard forever and a day. As we teach Kata, the "hidden" terminology speaks about the effective applications through discovering them during Bunkai/Oyo. "Hidden" because ones not discovered said effective applications YET!!

[jaypo]

Oh, I agree. I just use it to mean that to the untrained eye, the techniques are not obvious. My Sensei began showing me those techniques as soon as I began training with him as a purple belt.

[sensei8]

Oh, I agree. I just use it to mean that to the untrained eye, the techniques are not obvious. My Sensei began showing me those techniques as soon as I began training with him as a purple belt.

My post wasn't directed directly to you, it was just a general statement directed towards no one particularly. Your post was solid, and I just wanted to generally speak towards the word "hidden" because a lot of MAists STILL think, and are taught, that kata contains "hidden" applications, and that these supposed applications are secret.

An awe and struck mindset can be a bad thing for any MAist.

[jaypo]

Cool!