Karate ni sente nashi - There is no first attack in Karate

[wagnerk]

"There is no first attack in karate" in my view is an oversimplification of a principal.

My association's (and my) interpretation of it is that we as martial artists shouldn't be the aggressors - the ones displaying threating behaviour, as that is already the first attack.

While we shouldn't start the fight, we shoud have no problem finishing them, irrespective of whether or not physical violence is there already....

While I'm not a lawyer, in the UK the courts have upheld the rights of an individual to protect themselves, or other people, and this includes the use force or violence to do so... As long as the amount of force used is not excessive to the situation.

[muttley]

As a use of force instructor within a UK government body, I can tell you that in the UK uof is legal (and you are covered under criminal law act 1967 section 3(1) as well as common law - have a look for Beckford v. The Queen). You do have to prove that the force used was :

Necessary

No more than necessary

Proportionate

Reasonable

I would say we have some of the best laws for self defence in the world.

[sensei8]

Could be hard/difficult to prove/defend those parameters of force because how one defines each will differ from person to person. Proving is convincing ones ideologies, and at times, that's just not that easy. However, at times, it can be just that easy. Depends on the courts!

[SteyrAUG]

I would say we have some of the best laws for self defence in the world.

I would disagree. Great place to be a criminal however.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8771809/Father-arrested-for-murder-over-knifing-suspected-burglar.html

"Police said that during the break-in Mr Cooke was threatened and that one of the intruders - named locally as Raymond Jacob - was knifed."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223125/90-year-old-shot-face-burglary-SUED-burglar-World-War-Two-veteran-fired-back.html

A 90-year-old body-building, World War Two veteran who was shot in the face during a home invasion is being sued by the alleged burglar for firing back.

Former Greenbrae deputy sheriff Jay Leone is accused of 'negligently shooting' 31-year-old Samuel Cutrufelli three times and causing him 'great bodily injury' as the older man defended his own home.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1075809/No-barbed-wire--hurt-thieves-allotment-holders-told.html

A gardener who fenced off his allotment with barbed wire after being targeted by thieves has been ordered to take it down – in case intruders scratch themselves.

Bill Malcolm erected the 3ft fence after thieves struck three times in just four months, stealing tools worth around £300 from his shed and ransacking his vegetable patch.

[Anaku]

Two of my old teacher's favorite sayings were, "start second, finish first", and "don't move unless your opponent moves." Intent can be felt and responded to. This is Zen.

[Harkon72]

By the letter of the Law in the UK you can use reasonable force to prevent injury to yourself or other persons if the threat of aggression is deemed to be significant. So, you can hit first! You can also use reasonable force to prevent loss or damage to your property. These rules are not gray areas. Usually what is judged to be unreasonable force is determined by the judgment of a jury. As my Sensei says; "It is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6."

[tallgeese]

This particular translation has always been problematic for me. I tend to look at the problem in teh same manner as ps1. I think that's a great translation. I'm not 100% that's what the intent was at the outset, but I like it more.

If we take the translation as it's often inferred I think it gives us real problems. Defense never wins fights, offense does. Defense is only useful to over come the ambush situation and begin our own attack. If we're ahead of the situation and reading pre-assault indicators properly then by all means we should attack first.

This is how we win. We don't give the aggressor the footing to potentially take the initiative. We take the forward momentum of the fight and stay inside the other guys OODA loop.

But that's just me from a combative viewpoint.

[SteyrAUG]

This particular translation has always been problematic for me. I tend to look at the problem in teh same manner as ps1. I think that's a great translation. I'm not 100% that's what the intent was at the outset, but I like it more.

It's a noble ideal that Funakoshi felt was suitable to represent his art at the time. We need time and place for context. I don't think Funakoshi would have seriously advocated "waiting until you are attacked to act" if the scenario was a home invader and you defending your family.

We also need to remember these were men, not Gods. Not everything they said or did is gold. If you think dogma creates problems in religion, it's even worse in the martial arts.

Funakoshi was simply trying to have a more dignified representation than the "brawling" he saw from others like Choki Motobu. While they are now both revered "masters" they strongly disliked each other. Motobu dismissed Funakoshi as nothing more than a "kata dancer who couldn't fight" and Funakoshi saw Motobu as an "artless street brawler."

Obviously neither representation is completely accurate but they both have something of a point. Motobu would have laughed at most of Funakoshi's "precepts."

I have endeavored to learn from both men and can respect both of their positions at the same time. I try and be knowledgeable enough to know when to apply the teachings of one over the other when the situation demands it.

[sensei8]

I would say we have some of the best laws for self defence in the world.

I would disagree. Great place to be a criminal however.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8771809/Father-arrested-for-murder-over-knifing-suspected-burglar.html

"Police said that during the break-in Mr Cooke was threatened and that one of the intruders - named locally as Raymond Jacob - was knifed."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223125/90-year-old-shot-face-burglary-SUED-burglar-World-War-Two-veteran-fired-back.html

A 90-year-old body-building, World War Two veteran who was shot in the face during a home invasion is being sued by the alleged burglar for firing back.

Former Greenbrae deputy sheriff Jay Leone is accused of 'negligently shooting' 31-year-old Samuel Cutrufelli three times and causing him 'great bodily injury' as the older man defended his own home.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1075809/No-barbed-wire--hurt-thieves-allotment-holders-told.html

A gardener who fenced off his allotment with barbed wire after being targeted by thieves has been ordered to take it down – in case intruders scratch themselves.

Bill Malcolm erected the 3ft fence after thieves struck three times in just four months, stealing tools worth around £300 from his shed and ransacking his vegetable patch.

Laws protect both the victim as well as the criminal!! The laws for everyone, therefore, no one's above the law. Still, one must do what one must do to protect their loved ones, friends, property, and themselves. Property is replaceable, but ones life isn't!

A very thin line, imho!!

[SteyrAUG]

I would say we have some of the best laws for self defence in the world.

I would disagree. Great place to be a criminal however.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8771809/Father-arrested-for-murder-over-knifing-suspected-burglar.html

"Police said that during the break-in Mr Cooke was threatened and that one of the intruders - named locally as Raymond Jacob - was knifed."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223125/90-year-old-shot-face-burglary-SUED-burglar-World-War-Two-veteran-fired-back.html

A 90-year-old body-building, World War Two veteran who was shot in the face during a home invasion is being sued by the alleged burglar for firing back.

Former Greenbrae deputy sheriff Jay Leone is accused of 'negligently shooting' 31-year-old Samuel Cutrufelli three times and causing him 'great bodily injury' as the older man defended his own home.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1075809/No-barbed-wire--hurt-thieves-allotment-holders-told.html

A gardener who fenced off his allotment with barbed wire after being targeted by thieves has been ordered to take it down – in case intruders scratch themselves.

Bill Malcolm erected the 3ft fence after thieves struck three times in just four months, stealing tools worth around £300 from his shed and ransacking his vegetable patch.

Laws protect both the victim as well as the criminal!! The laws for everyone, therefore, no one's above the law. Still, one must do what one must do to protect their loved ones, friends, property, and themselves. Property is replaceable, but ones life isn't!

A very thin line, imho!!

You'll just have to forgive me if my concerns lie almost solely with the victim of the crime and I have very little concern for the criminal who is creating the crime and putting the victim and his family at risk.

Additionally, not all property is replaceable. If you steal the flag that was draped over my Grandfathers coffin at his funeral, I will never be able to get another one. There is only one in the entire world and I value it above most things including the lives of those who might break into my home.

Also there is the risk to the community aspect, if I am facing a violent criminal and I take his life, how many lives have I saved? 10? 25? How many people are now spared a violent attack or rape? 50? 100?

I don't think criminals should be protected in any way. That is why I could never live in the UK.