Is Karate Found In Other Systems??

[CredoTe]

IMHO, "karate" should only be used to refer to "karate" as known by the Okinawan/Japanese roots. I understand the general term can be used to describe any empty/open handed MA, but, if we're going to do that, then we could just call every "striking" art "boxing".

Boxing vs. Chinese boxing vs. kung fu vs. karate... How do we discern the difference? By where it comes from...

[sensei8]

IMHO, "karate" should only be used to refer to "karate" as known by the Okinawan/Japanese roots. I understand the general term can be used to describe any empty/open handed MA, but, if we're going to do that, then we could just call every "striking" art "boxing".

Boxing vs. Chinese boxing vs. kung fu vs. karate... How do we discern the difference? By where it comes from...

Solid post!! The use of "karate" for every MA, imho, falls into allowing, thus satisfying the masses. Karate is Karate. TKD is TKD. Boxing is boxing. Wrestling is wrestling. BJJ is BJJ. Judo is judo. And so on and so forth, imho!!

[DWx]

IMHO, "karate" should only be used to refer to "karate" as known by the Okinawan/Japanese roots. I understand the general term can be used to describe any empty/open handed MA, but, if we're going to do that, then we could just call every "striking" art "boxing".

Boxing vs. Chinese boxing vs. kung fu vs. karate... How do we discern the difference? By where it comes from...

Solid post!! The use of "karate" for every MA, imho, falls into allowing, thus satisfying the masses. Karate is Karate. TKD is TKD. Boxing is boxing. Wrestling is wrestling. BJJ is BJJ. Judo is judo. And so on and so forth, imho!!

Sure I think it's wrong to label boxing, wrestling or BJJ under the Karate label as they are fundamentally different and are not a descendant. (Doubt most of these guys would want to use that name anyway).

But taking Korean Karate/Tae Kwon Do/Tang Soo Do/Kong Soo Do, ultimately it's just tweaked (Shotokan) Karate and can technically claim lineage back to Funakoshi and ultimately Shuri-Te/Naha-Te. What disqualifies it from adopting the "Karate brand"? Simply location? As I said in my earlier post, Tang Soo Do and Kong Soo Do are really just the Korean pronunciations of Karate-Do. Would it be ok to use these terms?

Personally I choose not to call TKD Karate but I think you can argue some schools can claim to teach (Korean) Karate, especially those that remain close to the original Kwan teachings.

If location is a factor, does Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate qualify for the Karate name tag? It wasn't developed in Japan or Okinawa.

[Harkon72]

This is an interesting discussion, the term "Karate" is a massive umbrella for many diverse arts. The lay person might call them all "Karate" but just look at how different modern Okinawan Karate and Korean Tea Kwon Do looks;

http://youtu.be/dSzZVnkdB7I

I might have picked poor examples; but as you can see they may both be called "Karate", but they are worlds apart.

[DWx]

This is an interesting discussion, the term "Karate" is a massive umbrella for many diverse arts. The lay person might call them all "Karate" but just look at how different modern Okinawan Karate and Korean Tea Kwon Do looks;

http://youtu.be/dSzZVnkdB7I

I might have picked poor examples; but as you can see they may both be called "Karate", but they are worlds apart.

Yep certainly interesting and I agree there is a visual difference. Tae Kwon Do too is an umbrella term as it contains many different styles. Look how different the Tae Kwon Do you posted is to these (all 1st dan material for comparison):

This is all Tae Kwon Do.

What makes them not Karate? Or what makes Karate what it is?

[Harkon72]

Thank you for sharing Danielle, after watching those it is very apparent to me why they call Tae Kwon Do "Long Hand Boxing."

Here is another example of good Okinawan Karate; just for fun;

http://youtu.be/HMaUP4vr248

That was Goju Ryu, a Nahate based style, it's traditional and a good example I think.

[CredoTe]

IMHO, "karate" should only be used to refer to "karate" as known by the Okinawan/Japanese roots. I understand the general term can be used to describe any empty/open handed MA, but, if we're going to do that, then we could just call every "striking" art "boxing".

Boxing vs. Chinese boxing vs. kung fu vs. karate... How do we discern the difference? By where it comes from...

Solid post!! The use of "karate" for every MA, imho, falls into allowing, thus satisfying the masses. Karate is Karate. TKD is TKD. Boxing is boxing. Wrestling is wrestling. BJJ is BJJ. Judo is judo. And so on and so forth, imho!!

Sure I think it's wrong to label boxing, wrestling or BJJ under the Karate label as they are fundamentally different and are not a descendant. (Doubt most of these guys would want to use that name anyway).

But taking Korean Karate/Tae Kwon Do/Tang Soo Do/Kong Soo Do, ultimately it's just tweaked (Shotokan) Karate and can technically claim lineage back to Funakoshi and ultimately Shuri-Te/Naha-Te. What disqualifies it from adopting the "Karate brand"? Simply location? As I said in my earlier post, Tang Soo Do and Kong Soo Do are really just the Korean pronunciations of Karate-Do. Would it be ok to use these terms?

Personally I choose not to call TKD Karate but I think you can argue some schools can claim to teach (Korean) Karate, especially those that remain close to the original Kwan teachings.

If location is a factor, does Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate qualify for the Karate name tag? It wasn't developed in Japan or Okinawa.

While Funakoshi certainly trained in Tote/Tudi from Azato and Itosu, the core concepts of Tudi were not truly passed on; it's really difficult to instruct a massive amount of students (kids in grade school), in a large scale format, in these concepts. They simply take too much time for so many to learn all at once. Imperial Japan was gearing up for war at the time, and needed as many militarized school kids/teens as possible. Sure, there are exceptions...

Shotokan's lineage can be traced back to Shuri-te/Naha-te for sure, but, no offense, there's a reason Shotokan doesn't look or move like Shorin-Ryu (this is not a style vs. style which is better comparison). Yes, Shotokan "shares" kata with Shorin-Ryu, but the stances are different, concepts of movement are different, etc.

At it's tiniest core, this issue does go back to words. Words mean things; when the meaning is lost, not passed on, or ignored, then the core concepts start to degenerate, unravel. Case in point: Tang/Kong Soo Do are Korean pronunciations of the Japanese word "Karate-Do" - doesn't mean it's actually Karate in truth, in practice. It's not all the Koreans' fault, either... It goes back to Funakoshi and his peers at the time they were introducing Tudi to mainland Japan.

Again, words mean things. The Ryukyuan "Tuudi/Tudi/Toudi" was translated as "Tote" in Japan. In fear of Japanese backlash, Funakoshi and his peers decided to further sift the translation from "Tote" to "Karate" to hide the Chinese influence. What we have are tracks covering tracks covering translation errors... See, that little part at the end, "te", was a misinterpretation...

As we know, "te" means "hand"; thus, "Tote" means "Tang Hand" or "China Hand", and "Karate" means "empty hand". The problem is, the "di" from "Tuudi/Tudi/Toudi" doesn't mean "hand". "di" is "Ti"; "Ti" does not mean "hand". The Japanese just thought it did. "Ah, Ti? What is this 'Ti'? This Tudi? Oh! Ti must be like 'te'! 'Tote!' OK! Got it!" Right from the start, the core concepts were unraveled, before they even made it to Korea.

See, "Ti" is derived from the Ryukyuan tchi, and means "wisdom". Someone who held the knowledge of Ti was known as a tchikaya. Whether tchi was transmitted from master to apprentice is another matter (either as "Ti" or "Tudi"). Some masters were better than others at transmitting / passing tchi on to their apprentices (students). Discussion over who these masters were is subject for a different thread/topic .

You're right in that it's hard to say who is or isn't "karate". The defining characteristic is that words mean things (sorry to sound like a broken record ), and words' meanings are derived from their heritage. When the meaning of a word is spread out to include as wide as possible a definition, it loses its meaning and core concepts. I would say that what most people do isn't true "karate". Even myself; the only reason I say I'm a "karateka" is because my style's lineage/ancestry can be traced directly to Okinawa and Tudi, and that my karate ancestors DID pass on the Tudi/Ti/tchi.