Is Karate Found In Other Systems??

[sensei8]

Only Okinawa and Japanese systems are Karate?!?

If you're studying a Korean system, is that Karate?

The term 'Karate' is used often in schools of the MA as liberal as air is breathed in to sustain life. This term 'Karate' is treated as though it's a universal terminology, thereby, MA styles outside of Okinawa/Japanese origin freely brand their MA school as 'Karate'.

Personally, the usage of 'Karate' by other systems doesn't bother me because most layperson's relate the word 'Karate' as MA. It's a branding methodology that attracts said new prospective students through the waiting doors of their MA school.

Kung-fu, TKD, TSD, Hapkido, and so on and so forth will, at times, utilize the word 'Karate' in every advertisement and marketing tool, when in reality, they're not 'Karate' at all, and they're not an Japanese or Okinawa based system.

Is the usage of the word 'Karate' in their marketing/advertisements, False Advertisement?

Your thoughts, please.

[Harkon72]

You could argue that all "Empty Hand" Arts could be termed as "Karate" by definition. But would you call Kung Fu or Wu Shu "Chinese Karate" as you would call Tang Soo Do or Tae Kwon Do "Korean Karate." ? I would call Ed Parker's Kenpo "American Karate". I practice Welsh Karate don't I? No, seriously; If your style is derived from Okinawan Nahate or Shurite, then, theoretically it is "Karate" even if your tradition was developed in another country; for example - Korea.

[DWx]

It's all just semantics in the end. Unfortunately the public in general knows Martial Arts = Karate. Sometimes it's just easier to say you practice Karate because most people can relate to that word.

You could argue that all "Empty Hand" Arts could be termed as "Karate" by definition. But would you call Kung Fu or Wu Shu "Chinese Karate" as you would call Tang Soo Do or Tae Kwon Do "Korean Karate." ? I would call Ed Parker's Kenpo "American Karate". I practice Welsh Karate don't I? No, seriously; If your style is derived from Okinawan Nahate or Shurite, then, theoretically it is "Karate" even if your tradition was developed in another country; for example - Korea.

Well taking Korean Karate as an example, early Taekwondo instructors called their styles that for a couple of reasons. First of all many of these instructors did indeed learn Karate whilst in Japan and then brought it home with them. Very early TKD schools were actually just Karate.

Over time they started to tweak it to make it more Korean and less Japanese so it started to change but the root and foundation was still there. Eventually it needed a new (and Korean) name so Taekwondo/Tang Soo Do etc were chosen. Over the style's evolution I think you'd struggle to pinpoint a definitive moment when the techniques stopped being Karate and became something else

Also, when a lot of instructors like Jhoon Rhee went out to America, the Taekwondo name hadn't yet taken hold. What do you then tell students they are practicing? It's not Karate as in Japanese or Okinawan Karate but it's something a little bit different. It's Korean so they called it Korean Karate for simplicity.

[lowereastside]

DWx says " It's Korean so they called it Korean Karate for simplicity. " Right on point that is what is was advertised in the 1960's in NYC - Korean Karate - and in small lettering Moo Duk kwan, Jidokwan and so on.............

[devil dog]

I read somewhere that two individuals while studying in Japan took Shotokan from Funikoshi Sensei and later upon their return to Korea invented Tae Kwon Do.

I do not know if this is true but it makes sense since a good friend of mine was taking TKD while I was taking Shorin Ryu when we were kids and he was practicing Pinan kata's. We thought that was weird at the time until I read the article and it seemed to make more sense.

[Harkon72]

I had heard that Tang Soo Do was expressed as "Korean Shotokan" but I have no stories of how this may be accurate or not.

[sensei8]

It's all just semantics in the end. Unfortunately the public in general knows Martial Arts = Karate. Sometimes it's just easier to say you practice Karate because most people can relate to that word.

You could argue that all "Empty Hand" Arts could be termed as "Karate" by definition. But would you call Kung Fu or Wu Shu "Chinese Karate" as you would call Tang Soo Do or Tae Kwon Do "Korean Karate." ? I would call Ed Parker's Kenpo "American Karate". I practice Welsh Karate don't I? No, seriously; If your style is derived from Okinawan Nahate or Shurite, then, theoretically it is "Karate" even if your tradition was developed in another country; for example - Korea.

Well taking Korean Karate as an example, early Taekwondo instructors called their styles that for a couple of reasons. First of all many of these instructors did indeed learn Karate whilst in Japan and then brought it home with them. Very early TKD schools were actually just Karate.

Over time they started to tweak it to make it more Korean and less Japanese so it started to change but the root and foundation was still there. Eventually it needed a new (and Korean) name so Taekwondo/Tang Soo Do etc were chosen. Over the style's evolution I think you'd struggle to pinpoint a definitive moment when the techniques stopped being Karate and became something else

Also, when a lot of instructors like Jhoon Rhee went out to America, the Taekwondo name hadn't yet taken hold. What do you then tell students they are practicing? It's not Karate as in Japanese or Okinawan Karate but it's something a little bit different. It's Korean so they called it Korean Karate for simplicity.

That's true, but for the sake of discussions, it might not be.

[Kusotare]

A rose by any other name...

Here in Europe, the location where some products are made gives rise to their name and is protected by EU law:

Champaign

Cornish Pasties

Melton Mowbray Pork Pies

Is karate the same, personally, I think so.

K.

[Lupin1]

Karate means empty hand, so really you can call any (primarily) empty-handed combat system "karate" and just port the word over. Calling Kendo or other primarily weapons systems karate doesn't make much sense. But pretty much any other system can possibly be called that. It kinda feels like we're stealing Japan's word when we do that, but that's just what humans do over time. It's not necessarily correct usage, but it's become common usage. Gotta go with it.

[DWx]

I read somewhere that two individuals while studying in Japan took Shotokan from Funikoshi Sensei and later upon their return to Korea invented Tae Kwon Do.

I do not know if this is true but it makes sense since a good friend of mine was taking TKD while I was taking Shorin Ryu when we were kids and he was practicing Pinan kata's. We thought that was weird at the time until I read the article and it seemed to make more sense.

Essentially yes. There were 5 original Kwans or schools founded in the 1940s towards the end of Japan's occupation of Korea, (four more were founded in the 1950s). Most trained in some form of Karate as they'd been relocated to Japan (or Okinawa) at some point before going back home to Korea. It's a messy and muddled history especially as it is mixed in with Japanese-Korean politics but in short:

5 Original Kwans

• *Chung Do Kwan (Lee Won Kyuk), trained in Taekkyon, Karate with Funakoshi and Kung-Fu in China
   
  *Jidokwan (Chun Sang Sup), Karate under Funakoshi,
   
  *Chang Moo Kwan (Yoon Byung-In, trained Chuan-Fa and Karate under Kanken Toyama
   
  *Moo Duk Kwan (Hwang Kee), studied Taekkyon and Soo Bahk (?), later Kung Fu and some elements of Shotokan
   
  *Song Moo Kwan (Ro Byung Jik), studied Karate under Funakoshi

Post Korean War Kwans

• *Han Moo Kwan (Lee Kyo Yoon), offshoot of Jidokwan,
   
  *Oh Do Kwan (Choi Hong Hi), offshoot of Chung Do Kwan, also studied under Funakoshi and some Taekkyon
   
  *Kang Duk Won (Park Chul Hee), offshoot of Chang Moo Kwan
   
  *Jung Do Kwan (Lee Yong Woo), offshoot of Chung Do Kwan
  

http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.html

Most kwans started off using Karate Kata. The ITF hyung/tul came in around the 1960s (?) and then later the WTF poomsae and taegueks. Other groups like the ATA/Songham later devised their own forms. But some schools still retain the original kata they were taught.

I had heard that Tang Soo Do was expressed as "Korean Shotokan" but I have no stories of how this may be accurate or not.

Tang Soo Do is the Korean pronunciations of 唐手道, the hanja for (China-hand) Karate Do.

Kong Soo Do is the pronunciation of 空手道, (empty-hand) Karate-Do.