Kata Training vs. Concepts Training

[CredoTe]

Brian's title is kind of a devil's advocate because kata IS a concept, in that, it can't versus itself.

Absolutely... I can't imagine training or teaching kata without showing the concepts that go with it. Even before we added Ti into the mix, we trained and taught kata with conceptual purpose (just different than what Ti has given us). These concepts must be understood in order for the bunkai/oyo to work and make sense. Otherwise, we'd be doing it just to look cool...

[bushido_man96]

Brian's title is kind of a devil's advocate because kata IS a concept, in that, it can't versus itself.

Its the convenience of the name. I'm not claiming that kata is not a concept. But, when I say "kata training," just about everyone knows what I am talking about, or has a view in their mind of what it is, and what it may or may not entail.

Now, where I get into trouble is the following. Kata in most dojo's occupies way, way too much of the training time. Additionally, there are way too many taught to every be "learned" in the fashion which will lead to practical fighting skill.

I agree. I have around 20 patterns to learn, and our school doesn't work any patterns applications. Its actually a rather new and rather highly disputed activity in most TKD circles, training TKD patterns in the kata concept of bunkai. Some question whether that was the goal or not for TKD patterns; as far as I'm concerned, its not whether or not it was the goal, but if it can be a verifiable and effective way to train with them. That's a matter for another thread.

But with that said, I do agree that too much time is spent on forms work, and not enough time on partner work, and I feel that most of this is due to the nature of the curriculum in Martial styles that utilize forms work.

I'm sorry, but I disagree; In our karate school, you are taught more kata as you progress in rank. But, the key to progression is to show maturity in all the kata you have been taught. The examiner can ask you to perform any of the kata in your repertoire; its bunkai and application as you understand it and they expect to see the style of your karate reflected in your kata, kihon and kumite. I expect to be tested on simple cross kata in my next grading, as well as the two kata I am learning now. These have been introduced to me previously; I'm now being taught their finer points, tempo and application that is fitting of my rank, which doesn't always follow belt colour. There are advanced applications to even the most basic of our karate's kata; you don't have to remember them all; just as long as your personal budo is well developed.

To the bold above; you may disagree, but it does appear which kata you learn depends on your rank. My question is, which is the first kata you learned, and do you go back to it often, and do you think it is enough?

As for your comments on the maturity in progression of kata, I feel that the parner concept training really works off of a similar model, but is based more off of strategies and tactics to apply, as opposed to the different moves taught in kata applications. I think they are similar in regards here, but the partner training concpets allows for a quicker ability in learning to apply the concepts.

[Harkon72]

Our cross Kata are the most basic, there are 10 of these. They are taught along side the other Kata as you progress. To the layman's eye, there are 4 blocks and 4 punches or strikes in each; but you find in practice that each of these basic looking kata have techniques that can be applied at the most advanced level within them. I'll give you a clue; a reaction or Hikate hand can prove just as deadly as a more obvious technique and each turn in a simple Kata with an appropriate block can prove to be a throw or take down. The thrusting hands of the first punch in Shio Tsuke can be a termination technique if applied in an adult's bunkai of the kata; and this is the first kata ever taught. This concept of progressive maturity of bunkai is a common thread of Okinawan Karate. We look to develop our Karatedo from the most basic to the more advanced throughout the whole spectrum of our teaching. We always return to the core, kata is not a vessel for gaining belts.

[bushido_man96]

I don't think kata is only a vessel for gaining belts, but you can't deny the correlation between the rank you are, and the kata you learn. I'm not saying it is right, wrong, or indifferent, but that the correlation does exist in many styles.

Now, with that said, you mention all the applications that come out of the kata you learn. Which I think is a great thing. But, my train of thought here is that the time taken out for first learning the kata is time that could be applied towards learning the applications or the concepts behind them, drilling with a live partner, thus increasing the learning curve in acquiring self-defense skills.

[sensei8]

Possibly...maybe...the correlation is based more on ones experience level. Sure, the Sensei teaches said kata to the student, but in doing that, he/she insures that the student is capable of it.

Surely, for example, a white belt isn't ready for a Green/Brown/Black belt kata for the lack of experience. Unsu demands much more than a Shodan can muster, in that, Unsu is usually reserved for the Yondan, 4th Dan, level of experience.

Rank does correlate to the Kata, and visa versa, but, not for the pure sake of a testing cycle.

[bushido_man96]

There was a time, however, that kata were not tied to rank. Kata were sought out based on the knowledge they held. The advent of the ranking system has changed that.

[sensei8]

There was a time, however, that kata were not tied to rank. Kata were sought out based on the knowledge they held. The advent of the ranking system has changed that.

Yes...Yes...Yes...Yes...those were the days, my friend, I wished that they never ended, oh yes those were the days!!

Money, changes a lot of things, imho.

[bushido_man96]

I'm not sure it was changed due to money. It would have been done first by Itosu, if I remember correctly, and then by Funakoshi. I'm not sure either one of these individuals made a lot of money from their training.

[sensei8]

I'm not sure it was changed due to money. It would have been done first by Itosu, if I remember correctly, and then by Funakoshi. I'm not sure either one of these individuals made a lot of money from their training.

I concur!!

So, you're saying that the change(s) were made before money seeped its way into the fray?!?

[bushido_man96]

I'm not sure it was changed due to money. It would have been done first by Itosu, if I remember correctly, and then by Funakoshi. I'm not sure either one of these individuals made a lot of money from their training.

I concur!!

So, you're saying that the change(s) were made before money seeped its way into the fray?!?

I think the changes were made when the instructors began introducing the arts into schools.