Kata Training vs. Concepts Training

[bushido_man96]

Bob (sensei8) had a line in a post in the Jeet Kune Do vs Karate thread that pointed out some differences between Kata training and partner based concept training that I thought could make for some interesting discussion:

The one that teaches kata believes in its teaching methodology as kata teaches a plethora of body mechanics. Such as, transitions, posture, proper breathing, focus, hip movements, footwork, execution of technique, stances, and applications, to name just a few.

The one that doesn't teach kata believes that kata training is useless, akin to "swimming on dry land". It's believed that kata lacks the live training that one gets from sparring; to engage with another, yet, a live person and not an imaginary one.

I feel that what I am referring to for a lack of better terminology as "conceptual partner training" sees more value in getting into partner training concepts in regards to attack and defense as opposed to learning the set moves of Kata first, then acheiving technical perfection, then working applications.

I do feel that both systems have some merit, and I look forward to hearing from practitioners who do one, the other, or have done both training concepts.

[Harkon72]

Partner Concept training is fine. But in my view; please don't call training without Kata "Karate" because it isn't. If you take Kata from the three K's of Karate; (Kihon, Kata and Kumite.) You are left with stylized kickboxing, nothing more. And not having a high western style fighting stance doesn't fix it either.

[bushido_man96]

Personally, I don't think that Kata training has to be the one single tie to making Karate training Karate, but that is just my opinion. One could still have partner Kihon and Kumite, and learn concepts that way. I believe Karate means "empty hand," not "empty hand kata."

But, I'm not interested in trying to disect the the three K's from Karate, or taking Kata out of Karate training. I am interested in viewpoints in regards to the two ways of training I described in the opening post.

[Harkon72]

To answer your question, my advice is to do both; train in Kata; that's where your style is. Train in conceptual exchanges with a partner; this is where the style can be applied. But do train in Kumite too; as this is where the style is apparent but forgotten; this is where the Budo is.

[DWx]

I feel that what I am referring to for a lack of better terminology as "conceptual partner training" sees more value in getting into partner training concepts in regards to attack and defense as opposed to learning the set moves of Kata first, then acheiving technical perfection, then working applications.

There is value in both ways I think. I think it depends on your end goal and how you want to get there. Maybe even a question of Do vs Jutsu.

Certainly I think conceptual partner training is a quicker and more direct route to fighting proficiency. If your end goal is self defense IMHO that would be your best route. Heck look at MMA fighters or full contact Thai fighters or kickboxers. Their end goal is to get good at fighting as efficiently as possible

A lot of their training is based around learning concepts through partner work; learning concepts through feeling it.

That is not to say Kata does not have its own benefit nor that it will not provide you with a self defense base. But perhaps it isn't the quickest route to this goal. Kata to me is very much a Do practice in that it promotes physical and mental perfection as an end goal. It's about seeking that ultimate ideal of a one hit - one kill technique every time you execute a strike or punch. Much as you quoted above, Kata gives transitions, posture, proper breathing, focus, hip movements, footwork, execution of technique, stances but taught through a very strict model. Gen. Choi Hong Hi called this your "platoon tactics". The regimented way in which the class could be taught concepts. Appreciable self defense skills are the developed through transferring this to a live partner.

I guess for me, the best outcome is achieved through both modes of learning.

[bushido_man96]

There is value in both ways I think. I think it depends on your end goal and how you want to get there. Maybe even a question of Do vs Jutsu.

Very good observation here.

That is not to say Kata does not have its own benefit nor that it will not provide you with a self defense base. But perhaps it isn't the quickest route to this goal. Kata to me is very much a Do practice in that it promotes physical and mental perfection as an end goal. It's about seeking that ultimate ideal of a one hit - one kill technique every time you execute a strike or punch. Much as you quoted above, Kata gives transitions, posture, proper breathing, focus, hip movements, footwork, execution of technique, stances but taught through a very strict model.

I do agree that kata is good at training those things mentioned above. But, I point out the bold highlight, because I don't think it is the sole possession of kata training. Posture, transition, and breathing are taught more "on the fly" through the concept partner training, and emphasis isn't put as much on what is a "proper" stance, and more so on how functional it is for the given situation.

[andym]

To me the issue is only an issue if you view Kata in isolation. Taking it as solely and only the solo exercise. This is a false assumption. Yes, it did become the case that way too many only studied kata in it's solo aspect, back in the 1970's to 1990's, but by now I would have thought everybody understood that Kata as a solo exercise is one single aspect of of a whole training methodology that includes partner training if the Kata : Bunkai. To divorce solo training from partner training, is to only get half the lesson. After all, Bunkai is just a specialist form of Kumite (sparring) training.

[DWx]

That is not to say Kata does not have its own benefit nor that it will not provide you with a self defense base. But perhaps it isn't the quickest route to this goal. Kata to me is very much a Do practice in that it promotes physical and mental perfection as an end goal. It's about seeking that ultimate ideal of a one hit - one kill technique every time you execute a strike or punch. Much as you quoted above, Kata gives transitions, posture, proper breathing, focus, hip movements, footwork, execution of technique, stances but taught through a very strict model.

I do agree that kata is good at training those things mentioned above. But, I point out the bold highlight, because I don't think it is the sole possession of kata training. Posture, transition, and breathing are taught more "on the fly" through the concept partner training, and emphasis isn't put as much on what is a "proper" stance, and more so on how functional it is for the given situation.

That I don't disagree with. Could we view Kata training and partner training as leading to fighting skill from opposite ends of the spectrum?

Kata teaches you a bunch of stances and techniques. You are then put in a situation and have to cherry pick what you need to use from what you already know. Conceptual partner training puts you in the position and then you have either use what you know (perhaps a more limited repertoire) or add an additional technique to your knowledge based upon the situation you find yourself in?

[bushido_man96]

I think you make a good differentiation between the two, Danielle. Solid points.

[sensei8]

The three K's...again!! Without either of them, it's not karate!!

Kata training needs to be alive. Take the segments, and drill them live over and over again. Seek for the weaknesses that are in the Kata segments. Don't allow anything within the Kata work, unless it does work. This of course will change as one gains effective applied knowledge: what worked last time, now doesn't because I'm not a dolt; I got smarter over time. NOW FIX THAT! This will repeat until you die; it's never ending!!

Kate ISN'T a memorized dance! Stop treating and training kata as though it is, and nothing more.

Bruce's analysis of Kata is right and wrong, at the same time. Bruce was right when he said that kata is like swimming on dry land, but only at first, and that's because each new kata is unfamiliar ground.

Bruce was wrong in his thought when kata is trained live, and with a purpose. Kata then no longer is that ineffectiveness because Bunkai/Oyo is so far away from the core of kata, and that said kata is brought alive when we battle the segments. Allowing nothing!!