Loyalty to one's instructor

[DWx]

In Chang Hon Taekwon-Do, practitioners wrap their belts only once around their waist to symbolize:

1. Ohdoilkwan: Pursue one goal whatsoever, once it has been determined

2. Ilpyondanshim: Serve one master with unshakable loyalty

3. Ilkyokpilsung: Gain a victory in one blow

With regards to the 2nd point, should students of the martial arts have a duty to be loyal to their instructor? If so how far does this extend? Do you consider yourself to be loyal?

[Harkon72]

My Sensei is my Spiritual Brother, I am loyal to him and the rest of my Dojo family.

[sensei8]

should students of the martial arts have a duty to be loyal to their instructor?

A duty? NO!! Like respect, loyalty must be earned!!

Do you consider yourself to be loyal?

YES!! I'm pretty sure that most everyone here at KF knows just how loyal I am to my Dai-Soke.

Edited January 12, 2014 by sensei8

[cheesefrysamurai]

I agree with sensei8

You don't have to be loyal to someone because you are paying dues to them. Their loyalty and respect must be earned. By being a student I think you are giving them every opportunity to do so. Whether you Should be loyal or not is a question with a different answer. That's where "proof is on the floor" comes into play. These are some questions that guide me to my answer.

How important is my progress to my Sensei?

Are they humble?

Do they want me to be better than them?

Are they taking my instruction seriously?

How am I treated on the mat?

How do I feel when I leave?

How do I feel when I enter?

[sensei8]

I agree with sensei8

You don't have to be loyal to someone because you are paying dues to them. Their loyalty and respect must be earned. By being a student I think you are giving them every opportunity to do so. Whether you Should be loyal or not is a question with a different answer. That's where "proof is on the floor" comes into play. These are some questions that guide me to my answer.

How important is my progress to my Sensei?

Are they humble?

Do they want me to be better than them?

Are they taking my instruction seriously?

How am I treated on the mat?

How do I feel when I leave?

How do I feel when I enter?

Solid post!!

I think your questions hit the nail right on its head!! To command loyalty and respect for whatever the reason(s) might exist would be feeble minded of any school and/or instructor.

[mal103]

I think it's good to be loyal to your Sensei but you limit your teaching to the knowledge of one person? They may have a vast understanding of your art but I think it is a good idea to attend seminars and to visit others to expand your knowledge.

However, part of being loyal to your Sensei is to ask their blessing for you to go and train elsewhere, some people are still against the idea though so it is then up to you what you do.

I think some students make a mistake of blind loyalty where they don't question anything, the sort of person that writes rubbish on YouTube because it's different to how their Sensei does it.

I'm not that experienced at instructing but I expect my senior students to provide good and bad feedback and not just follow like sheep.

Also, cross training with other groups is in my opinion a good thing, it helps to spread good teaching concepts and will hopefully raise the standard of any that realise they are slightly under the standard. For instance I visited a dojo in London that was a higher pace than mine, i have included some faster paced training into the mix.

[DWx]

Do you think this is a difference in Western vs Eastern philosophy?

Here a teacher is someone you pay to provide a service but for those cultures based upon Confucian values, a teacher is typically on the same level as one's parents. And at least to me this is how I regard my own instructor.

I think it's good to be loyal to your Sensei but you limit your teaching to the knowledge of one person? They may have a vast understanding of your art but I think it is a good idea to attend seminars and to visit others to expand your knowledge.

However, part of being loyal to your Sensei is to ask their blessing for you to go and train elsewhere, some people are still against the idea though so it is then up to you what you do.

I think some students make a mistake of blind loyalty where they don't question anything, the sort of person that writes rubbish on YouTube because it's different to how their Sensei does it.

I'm not that experienced at instructing but I expect my senior students to provide good and bad feedback and not just follow like sheep.

Also, cross training with other groups is in my opinion a good thing, it helps to spread good teaching concepts and will hopefully raise the standard of any that realize they are slightly under the standard. For instance I visited a dojo in London that was a higher pace than mine, i have included some faster paced training into the mix.

Good points mal103. But I wouldn't say loyalty to one's teacher necessarily means your knowledge should be limited by them. In Gen. Choi's Enclyopedia (the text on Chang Hon TKD where my above quotes came from), the General lays out what makes a good teacher and a good student. In it he specifically says that a good teacher should encourage their students to go out to gyms and cross train. A good instructor should also be eager for is students to surpass them and when this happens, they should help find the student a higher ranked teacher.

Loyalty to me means supporting them in their endeavors and (within reason) doing what you can to assist in the success of the school and your instructor. It also means that you carry your instructor's and school's name with you and should be mindful of how your actions reflect upon them.

[DWx]

I agree with sensei8

You don't have to be loyal to someone because you are paying dues to them. Their loyalty and respect must be earned. By being a student I think you are giving them every opportunity to do so. Whether you Should be loyal or not is a question with a different answer. That's where "proof is on the floor" comes into play. These are some questions that guide me to my answer.

How important is my progress to my Sensei?

Are they humble?

Do they want me to be better than them?

Are they taking my instruction seriously?

How am I treated on the mat?

How do I feel when I leave?

How do I feel when I enter?

Good points cheesfrysamurai. If they check all those points then (in my book) they'd certainly earn my respect. Is loyalty the same as respect?

[sensei8]

I agree with sensei8

You don't have to be loyal to someone because you are paying dues to them. Their loyalty and respect must be earned. By being a student I think you are giving them every opportunity to do so. Whether you Should be loyal or not is a question with a different answer. That's where "proof is on the floor" comes into play. These are some questions that guide me to my answer.

How important is my progress to my Sensei?

Are they humble?

Do they want me to be better than them?

Are they taking my instruction seriously?

How am I treated on the mat?

How do I feel when I leave?

How do I feel when I enter?

Good points cheesfrysamurai. If they check all those points then (in my book) they'd certainly earn my respect. Is loyalty the same as respect?

To the bold type above...

They are no more the same as the day is to the night.

Edited January 16, 2014 by sensei8

[bushido_man96]

I agree with sensei8

You don't have to be loyal to someone because you are paying dues to them. Their loyalty and respect must be earned. By being a student I think you are giving them every opportunity to do so. Whether you Should be loyal or not is a question with a different answer. That's where "proof is on the floor" comes into play. These are some questions that guide me to my answer.

How important is my progress to my Sensei?

Are they humble?

Do they want me to be better than them?

Are they taking my instruction seriously?

How am I treated on the mat?

How do I feel when I leave?

How do I feel when I enter?

Good points cheesfrysamurai. If they check all those points then (in my book) they'd certainly earn my respect. Is loyalty the same as respect?

I agree here, as well. These are good points to consider in regards to the school and instructor you learn under.

I think loyalty and respect can go hand in hand. If someone earns your respect, you are likely to have some loyalty to them, and vise versa. But, you can have some respect for someone's skills and abilities, but not be loyal them, either because you aren't associated with them, or don't agree with their ideals and thus choose not to associate with them.

Do you think this is a difference in Western vs Eastern philosophy?

I do think this is the case at times. In the West, it has never been unusual to seek out someone different if you needed to learn something different, or if you couldn't gain anything further from the one you were learning from peviously.

People's attitudes and views on things change over time. General Choi himself experienced this when he made the decision to move into North Korea with the ITF to gain government funding for his TKD. This was not popular with everyone who was a student of his, and it showed when they didn't follow him.

Here's another question: does seeking instruction from someone other than your current instructor make you disloyal to him or her? If they can't provide the knowledge you seek, then how is it a question of loyalty? Does remaining loyal to an instructor also mean you should not seek out your own opportunities to expand and grow, and fulfil your dreams, because they feel you should stay under them for your entire life? I don't think so. I think its important for us as people to learn, grow, and move on, just as our children do as they grow up. There just comes a time when there is nothing more for their parents to offer them, other than best of luck and godspeed. But, they are always there for questions and to offer advice.