Thinking of going rogue

[devil dog]

I received a letter from our association that our fee's will increase 20% this year to cover a whole host of expenses that don't really apply to me or any other instructor.

After talking with my students and instructors and learning that most of them will have to stop training due to financial concerns I have been thinking about leaving the association and going rogue.

Since I teach out of my pole barn on my property it will not effect me as far as finding a new place to train.

My worries are rank legitimacy and insurance.

All Dan certifications are sent to the main Hombu for authorization. If I leave they will only have my name and stamp on certificates. They also take care of all insurance requirements and I would have to find affordable insurance.

Have any of you gone through this? How did it effect you?

My instructors (under me) have been talking about going rogue even if if I choose to stay with in the association.

I need to find out more information but I believe I have made my mind up to leave but I just don't know enough about how it will effect me.

To make matters worse I am going for my promotion to Rokudan in April. If I leave I'm not sure that can happen.

Can any of you give an old karateka guidance?

[tallgeese]

The major functional thing you're looking at is insurance. That's what you'll need to safely continue to teach. Everything else is negotiable to a certain degree. But a lack of insurance can threaten you're livelihood and family should something go amiss.

That said, it's easy enough to find affordable insurance in the market with some research. While I can't give you specific guidance here, I know enough people that have made it work for small dojos to know that it can be done.

As for certificates, that's also easily done. Good quality paper, some design work ect and presto, you've got a nice diploma for your students. At some level, this is exactly what the association you're part of is doing anyway.

Legitimacy is easy, to my mind, as well. No matter if you're part of the organization or not they can't take away your knowledge base. Nor can they take away your answer to "who did you get rank under?"

That will always be the same. To me, this is the beginning and end of legitimacy.

Now, where you will run into problems is furthering your own rank. Here there are a couple of options. You could find another organization that oversees your art and see what their outlook on taking you in is. I'm not bit in the hierarchy of eastern arts, but I have to imagine that multi-dan ranked instructor with students is a good investment for many organizations. Another way would be to develop some sort of relationship with a black belt higher ranked than you in your organization and continue to try and achieve rank that way.

Of course, the last option is to no longer worry about advancement. This may or may not be an option based on your personal goals. You'll have to do the math but it sounds like you've done quite a bit of that already.

Good luck, and keep us posted on your situation.

[sensei8]

The major functional thing you're looking at is insurance. That's what you'll need to safely continue to teach. Everything else is negotiable to a certain degree. But a lack of insurance can threaten you're livelihood and family should something go amiss.

That said, it's easy enough to find affordable insurance in the market with some research. While I can't give you specific guidance here, I know enough people that have made it work for small dojos to know that it can be done.

As for certificates, that's also easily done. Good quality paper, some design work ect and presto, you've got a nice diploma for your students. At some level, this is exactly what the association you're part of is doing anyway.

Legitimacy is easy, to my mind, as well. No matter if you're part of the organization or not they can't take away your knowledge base. Nor can they take away your answer to "who did you get rank under?"

That will always be the same. To me, this is the beginning and end of legitimacy.

Now, where you will run into problems is furthering your own rank. Here there are a couple of options. You could find another organization that oversees your art and see what their outlook on taking you in is. I'm not bit in the hierarchy of eastern arts, but I have to imagine that multi-dan ranked instructor with students is a good investment for many organizations. Another way would be to develop some sort of relationship with a black belt higher ranked than you in your organization and continue to try and achieve rank that way.

Of course, the last option is to no longer worry about advancement. This may or may not be an option based on your personal goals. You'll have to do the math but it sounds like you've done quite a bit of that already.

Good luck, and keep us posted on your situation.

Solid post!! I couldn't have stated it any better if I tried. I just want to add something to what tallgeese has stated so well.

It's that unknown that will haunt you in the days before you. You'll question yourself over ever detail, but that's to be expected because there's a lot riding on your shoulders.

You don't need your governing body because your Hombu isn't the end-of-it-all thing that it thinks that it is. They need you, just as bad as you think you need them. However, without you, there's no tangible money that they can depend on, and they'll have to scramble to make up the loss.

You can see that now because they want to raise the testing fees. Don't allow your Hombu to hold you and your dojo and your students hostage. And that's what they are doing by a 20% increase. Tell them NO or you'll leave!! That might not be fruitful, and it might backfire!! But they're placing you in a corner, and some type of action is needed.

Hang in there!!

[wagnerk]

I've done it in the past (however it may be a little different over the pond), the associations that I ended up joining had various packages you could chose. I went with one for the insurance & for the traditional art and the other association for the sport art.

Both offered insurance policies (£2m and £5m), both were/are internationally recognised and/or have clubs outside of the UK, both had re-written policies (child protection, photograph, privacy, data protection, etc) and had pre-printed certificates available for use for instructors.

[devil dog]

I appreciate the suggestions and comments.

I'm not to concerned with the certificates themselves. I have the certificates on a disk and have the approved paper (both weight and dimension) so I could easily change a few things on them to avoid copy write infringement.

The insurance is the main thing. I need to spend time this week end and see what options are out there.

As far as my own advancement, I'm not overly concerned with this either. I have stayed at the same rank for years past when my piers have tested and moved on. It's mostly political at the higher ranks and truthfully I really do not like the butt kissing and behind the scenes stuff that goes on. I truely love teaching and passing on the art. Beyond that it's for someone much more ambitious than myself.

However I had two students advance to Yondan recently and was more or less pushed into advancing myself.

It looks like I have some home work to do. I guess I need to put some feelers out there and see if our sister organizations would be interested in pulling me into the fold.

I appreciate the fact that there is a place like these forums that you can contribute, ask questions and talk to other instructors outside of the coccon of my own art and association. I am new to the forums and for that matter any kind of outlet like this and have found it very informative and enjoyable.

Thanks for the input. Domo arigato gozaimashita!

[sensei8]

I appreciate the suggestions and comments.

I'm not to concerned with the certificates themselves. I have the certificates on a disk and have the approved paper (both weight and dimension) so I could easily change a few things on them to avoid copy write infringement.

The insurance is the main thing. I need to spend time this week end and see what options are out there.

As far as my own advancement, I'm not overly concerned with this either. I have stayed at the same rank for years past when my piers have tested and moved on. It's mostly political at the higher ranks and truthfully I really do not like the butt kissing and behind the scenes stuff that goes on. I truely love teaching and passing on the art. Beyond that it's for someone much more ambitious than myself.

However I had two students advance to Yondan recently and was more or less pushed into advancing myself.

It looks like I have some home work to do. I guess I need to put some feelers out there and see if our sister organizations would be interested in pulling me into the fold.

I appreciate the fact that there is a place like these forums that you can contribute, ask questions and talk to other instructors outside of the coccon of my own art and association. I am new to the forums and for that matter any kind of outlet like this and have found it very informative and enjoyable.

Thanks for the input. Domo arigato gozaimashita!

Another solid post!!

To the bold type above...

This is similar to what I've read about Fumio Demura. His instructor informed him that his students were going to eventually pass him; at that time Fumio Demura was a Godan. He heeded to his instructors comments, and he's, now a Kudan.

[devil dog]

Sensei8, I aprreciate the comments.

That is exactly why I decided to test.

Well I did a little digging and found information on insurance through one of my long time friends who is also an instructor in another style. He offered to bring me into the fold. I guess their association encompasses many styles and said that I could teach under what ever name I choose and teach what ever I choose.

I thought this to be very fishy and have heard of such organizations that will take on anyone as long as they pay. I agreed to talk with him and one of the board members about this but I am very skeptical at this point. He says that they charge a low fee, will provide insurance, authenticate and guarentee lineage (not sure how they do that when they are korean based but...), provide certificates, belts, uniforms etc.

I will try to keep an open mind but quite honestly it does not sound very ethical but we'll see.

I also called a few companies today and got quotes (not so cheap).

I also tried going back to my association and explain the issue and told them that raising rates would drive 60% of my students and instructors out the door.

I was told that due to increased insurance rates (which I can somewhat believe after getting a few quotes) and the cost of sending their senior instructors to check on schools and instructors and to sit on rank promotion exams (I do not understand this since we pay for them to come once a year and they usually stay with me and all food is provided. not sure where the extra expenses are), and a host of other reasons they have no choice but to increase the rates and I was assured that this effects everyone and this is not to target me, my instructors or my students.

When I told them that if this happened I would have to think hard about staying, they humbly told me that would be my choice but would make little difference in their decision due to financial reasons already discussed.

I thanked them for their time and ended the call.

Not sure what to do. Not really interested in joining an organization that encompasses every known art. But I am really not interested in paying or passing on the cost of the insurance which would be only slightly less than what we will be paying in fee's. Not really a win win that I thought I would find.

I still have to call other companies and see if there are better rates out there so I still have hope.

I do have the choice of teaching as a cheif instructor under my Sensei but I hate to loose any of my students. Most of them have been with me since they were knee high to a grasshopper. I have watched them grow into adults and some into really proficient instructors.

But if I can not find adequate means of insurance most of my students will be leaving anyway. At least this way the remainder could transfer into his dojo and I would still see them. The draw back would be that I would not be able to teach them all since I will be teaching only the advanced students. What to do? Not sure. Any suggestions or as originally posted do any of you know where I can find good affordable insurance?

[sensei8]

The cost of raising insurance costs, which is an unregulated entity, seems to be your only truly obstacle. Right?

Look at the very few beginning pages inside of Black Belt Magazine, you'll find there's a company, name escapes me right now, advertising insurance coverage for the MA. You'll find that that might be what you're looking for. If memory serves me, that particular insurance company seems to specialize in tournament insurance. However, if they do that type, then why not insurance for your dojo?!? Worth a phone call, imho.

I'm with you in your suspicious feelings toward that organization from just what you've posted. In that, they could be right as rain, but being careful will keep you from drowning in that same rain. Fees are everywhere, and they help float the boat, in this case, the organization. The lineage that they would provide you, imho, would be a broken because of the Korean interwoven. Pure lineage bears a solid mark, but lineage outside of your style can't be a good thing.

As far as what your own organization is telling you is, imho, them caring more about them and not the student body, which to me, is unforgivable. Not much more can be said towards that!!

Going back under your Sensei, while it's an inviting option, isn't also an enjoyable one. It's like having to move back into your mom and dad's house; you lose more than you gain.

The fight you have for your student body is commendable across the board. For that, I bow to you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep the good fight!!

[devil dog]

Going back under your Sensei, while it's an inviting option, isn't also an enjoyable one. It's like having to move back into your mom and dad's house; you lose more than you gain.

I could not have put it better and is exactly how I feel. Well put.

[devil dog]

Well I found some reasonable insurance with the help of my friend. I also sat down and talked to him and three of his senior Sensei (not sure if this is right in Korean, he kept calling them master) or maybe Shihan. I am not at all interested in going under their organization. Too many things did not add up and would not make sense for me and my students.

They were very kind to offer but had to decline their offer.

My Sensei wants me to sit down with him and several of our senior Sensei to discuss this. I agreed. Hopefully this will be to tell me they have a solution. We'll see.