Youthful Masters.

[sensei8]

After a certain point I think rank just becomes another tool for maintaining hierarchy.

How so??

Well why do you need to be a nidan? Or a sandan? Or a kudan? Why not just a Blackbelt? It is a tool to distinguish you from him or from her. That you are Bill's senior but Bob's junior. Early on rank is an identifier so your instructor and others can gauge your progress on a curriculum but when you are training for training's sake why do you need to be promoted further. IMHO it's to maintain that hierarchy so that both the rank holder and their peers know where within that hierarchy they fall.

I don't need to be anything except a student of the MA. Those type of things are there, and were there before I came onto the MA picture. I am what I am, but it's not because of something that I did beyond my training.

No one falls into the hierarchy, they're selected via an established voting proxy. Not everyone is of the hierarchy!! We use the word "hierarchy" within Shindokan circles to only note whom lies within the Administrative Chain of Command, and not within the ranks, as you're viewing it. It's an unfamiliar term for me to see rank as you're explaining it.

Before I was elected into the old Board of Regents, I was NOT part of the hierarchy, nor was I privy to anything Administrative and the like. When I speak here at KF and I use the word "hierarchy", I've always been referring to those members, those chosen few, that are part of the Administration and the like.

Ok...I've babbled enough...sorry!

It's seems as though you use the word "hierarchy" within Shindokan to refer to something specific?

In the strictest sense of the word, everyone who wears belts is part of a hierarchy whether they want to be or not. Taking this definition:

(n) a system in which members of an organization or society are ranked according to relative status or authority

Belt ranking seems to fit into this pretty well. Once getting the next belt stops opening up a new part of the curriculum for you, why do you ever need to be promoted again?

To the bold type above...

I refer to something specific, because it is specific within the Hombu! Not my rule, but the established rule as set by our Soke!! Our hierarchy is the recognized authority within our Hombu and the SKKA. Our ranks are NOT part of OUR hierarchy, and not all, but very few, are nominated/elected to be appointed to that status from our specific ranks. It's OUR way!! Not the way of others!!

I see what Danielle is saying, and it does fit into our discussion here. By and large, many of the organizations we are a part of have a hierarchy that is determined for the most part by the rank of those in the organization. The head of an organziation is usually the highest rank of that organization (usually). And we have also determined through the course of our discussion that most people who do promote themselves are likely doing so in order to move up in some hierarchy, whether it be their own or somebody elses.

I too see what Danielle, you, and everyone else is saying...to a point.

It's hard for me/us to view hierarchy the way you all are speaking about it because of Soke/Dai-Soke. To us, rank is referred through the Ranking Structure and our hierarchy is referred through our Chain of Command. For us, both are separate! Is my only point, if I even have one.

I'm trying to understand what you all are talking about, I really am. I just know what I was taught. If it's wrong, then, I'm sorry!!

[bushido_man96]

Its not wrong, Bob. Its just that there appears to be a couple of different view points on the issue, which is ok.

So, for the sake of discussion here, lets flip the terminology a bit. It is clear that you don't like the idea of someone self-appointing their rank. But what about self-appointing a title, like in your type of heirarchy, which has titles that may not be necessarily tied to rank? Would you view this the same as self-appointing rank, or different?

[sensei8]

Self-promoting ones title within an established structure is wrong too, imho. Our titles within our hierarchy are based on what's supported through our By-Laws, and in that, they're also supported through the way our Legal Team has written/worded them. Many of our titles, but not all of them, are tied into our Ranking Structure. For example, to be appointed to the Regents, one MUST be a Hachidan. But, that's a minimum prerequisite for that appointment.

I can't self-promote myself to be a KF Sensei! KF has an established structure, and to keep its integrity, minimum prerequisites exist. We strive to keep our integrity too.

Is this what you're speaking about? Am I on the same page?

[bushido_man96]

Self-promoting ones title within an established structure is wrong too, imho. Our titles within our hierarchy are based on what's supported through our By-Laws, and in that, they're also supported through the way our Legal Team has written/worded them. Many of our titles, but not all of them, are tied into our Ranking Structure. For example, to be appointed to the Regents, one MUST be a Hachidan. But, that's a minimum prerequisite for that appointment.

I can't self-promote myself to be a KF Sensei! KF has an established structure, and to keep its integrity, minimum prerequisites exist. We strive to keep our integrity too.

Is this what you're speaking about? Am I on the same page?

Yes, we are on the same page.

I do agree that not all things are subject to self-promotion. But, there are instances where it can be a viable option.

[sensei8]

If you've self-promoted yourself in rank for whatever reason(s), then I don't and won't respect you and your newly found rank. I would've threw up if my Dai-Soke had self-promoted himself to Judan, then I would've told him to get out of my life forever.

Hhhhmmmmmm...I suppose that the By-Laws make it OK. Now I'm feeling really sick right in the pit of my stomach.

This post makes me giggle...

I can't believe that people are that fixated on the stripes on a belt, where someone wont respect someone for it, or tell them to "get out of my life".

It's not the identifiers on said belts, it's the self-promotion that's the problem. That's what I don't respect; it's the self-aggrandizement of it all. And yes, I don't want to be around those types, which is my right.

Imho!!

sorry, but this sounds like a child who gets mad at his parents and says i hate you, get out of my life. few things in life are as serious to tell someone "get out of my life" and if someone promoting themselves or putting more stripes on their belt gets you THAT fired up, i would like to see how mad you get at things that really matter in life.

Rank/Title Self-Promoting really matters to me because, imho, it's wrong. It's wrong because, imho, it lacks integrity!!

[bushido_man96]

It seems wrong, because we only ever have other people promoting us. All I am saying is that at times, I think exceptions can be made. I don't think self-promotion necessarily lacks integrity.

[sensei8]

It seems wrong, because we only ever have other people promoting us. All I am saying is that at times, I think exceptions can be made. I don't think self-promotion necessarily lacks integrity.

Exceptions? What would those be?

How does self-promotion not lack integrity?

[bushido_man96]

Like I've mentioned earlier, in regards to evaluating one's position and abilities, and making a determination based on the information obtained.

[sensei8]

Like I've mentioned earlier, in regards to evaluating one's position and abilities, and making a determination based on the information obtained.

You lost me here. That's not hard to do, lose me.

[sensei8]

Having thought about this, I agree that there are exceptions to self-promote ones rank/title.

1) You've founded a new MA = Rank & Title

2) Founded a new governing body = Title ONLY

Those are about the only ones I can thing of.

Now, if the second one above occurs, I suppose that one MIGHT be able to create a new set of By-Laws, which could state that the "President" of said new governing body MUST hold the rank of Judan, for example. That could be an exception, maybe. If so, a Godan could be the new President, and under the By-Laws, attain Judan. Also, one could, as the new President of said new governing body, appoint a new Administration, and then that new Administration could then promote Judan to the new President. Imho, this still lacks integrity. But, that's just me!