Youthful Masters.

[DWx]

To the bold type above...

I refer to something specific, because it is specific within the Hombu! Not my rule, but the established rule as set by our Soke!! Our hierarchy is the recognized authority within our Hombu and the SKKA. Our ranks are NOT part of OUR hierarchy, and not all, but very few, are nominated/elected to be appointed to that status from our specific ranks. It's OUR way!! Not the way of others!!

Forgive me, but just because you have The Hierarchy as something specific, it does not mean that you don't fall into a hierarchy as well. By it's very nature having a belt rank gives structure and a pecking order by indicating one's seniority level.

You said earlier:

Fumio Demura refused rank advancements for many years. It wasn't until his Sensei reminded him that his students will pass him in rank, he therefore, with great tribulation, finally agreed.

Is this not an example of rank being used to establish and maintain a hierarchy and keep a level of seniority?

[DWx]

Keep in mind that before Eastern MA were introduced into grade schools, there really were no belt ranks like we see today. Karate, for instance, just trained hard for purposes of self-defense / civilian combat. Before its introduction into Japanese and Okinawan schools, people trained quietly in small groups or pairs, not too unlike Jedi and Padawans - a "master" or "instructor" and an apprentice or number of apprentices. They trained mostly outside in secluded areas away from unsuspecting viewers.

So, the idea that MA should train more like wrestling or boxing - they used to be that way in a certain sense, but I would say not quite so organized as wrestling or boxing (because karateka had to keep they're training hidden).

Just a thought...

That is a good point. And of course we all know that Jigoro Kano introduced the black / white belt system. Didn't really have much of a need beforehand. Individual kyus and dans were also added later to introduce more sub levels and provide more structure.

[sensei8]

To the bold type above...

I refer to something specific, because it is specific within the Hombu! Not my rule, but the established rule as set by our Soke!! Our hierarchy is the recognized authority within our Hombu and the SKKA. Our ranks are NOT part of OUR hierarchy, and not all, but very few, are nominated/elected to be appointed to that status from our specific ranks. It's OUR way!! Not the way of others!!

Forgive me, but just because you have The Hierarchy as something specific, it does not mean that you don't fall into a hierarchy as well. By it's very nature having a belt rank gives structure and a pecking order by indicating one's seniority level.

You said earlier:

Fumio Demura refused rank advancements for many years. It wasn't until his Sensei reminded him that his students will pass him in rank, he therefore, with great tribulation, finally agreed.

Is this not an example of rank being used to establish and maintain a hierarchy and keep a level of seniority?

Your first point speaks about rank; I DON'T, when I'm speaking about hierarchy as it pertains to Shindokan!! To ME, rank and hierarchy are TWO separate things...again...TO ME, per the way I was raised to understand hierarchy to be!! To ME, hierarchy speaks towards the Administration's Chain of Command, and nothing more.

For an example, I don't say that a group of our 8th Dans decided this or that. No. Instead, I say, the Regents, for example, decided this or that. I say it specifically that way because I'm speaking about an aspect of OUR hierarchy, our Chain of Command, as WE understand it to be.

I concur with your second point; it DOES speak about rank because Demura's Sensei WAS speaking about rank; Demura's!! In that, the post you quote me, I was telling Harkon72 about something that was similar to what he was specifically speaking about concerning his Sensei.

Both of your points are not in alignment with what I view hierarchy to be!

[Rateh]

I'm sorry, but aren't we talking about hierarchy as it applies to everyone in general? not just how it applies to you in Shindokan?

[Rateh]

If an organization chooses to have only "black belt" without degrees, and being a black belt allowed you to promote everyone up to the rank of black belt, then it makes sense not to need a high rank. But so long as one belongs to an organization or style that uses high rank black belts, then doesn't it stand to reason that one must become a high rank black belt if they wish to teach and promote other students?

[maisweh]

If you've self-promoted yourself in rank for whatever reason(s), then I don't and won't respect you and your newly found rank. I would've threw up if my Dai-Soke had self-promoted himself to Judan, then I would've told him to get out of my life forever.

Hhhhmmmmmm...I suppose that the By-Laws make it OK. Now I'm feeling really sick right in the pit of my stomach.

This post makes me giggle...

I can't believe that people are that fixated on the stripes on a belt, where someone wont respect someone for it, or tell them to "get out of my life".

It's not the identifiers on said belts, it's the self-promotion that's the problem. That's what I don't respect; it's the self-aggrandizement of it all. And yes, I don't want to be around those types, which is my right.

Imho!!

sorry, but this sounds like a child who gets mad at his parents and says i hate you, get out of my life. few things in life are as serious to tell someone "get out of my life" and if someone promoting themselves or putting more stripes on their belt gets you THAT fired up, i would like to see how mad you get at things that really matter in life.

[sensei8]

I'm sorry, but aren't we talking about hierarchy as it applies to everyone in general? not just how it applies to you in Shindokan?

No! We're talking about Youthful Masters! But, sometimes topics take turns off the topic, and I think that's what happened, somehow or someway, and it might be my fault.

I was answering DWx's question(s), and for me to answer her honestly, I've only one thing to base my comparison with, and that being what I've learned hierarchy is from our Soke and Dai-Soke. For me, I can't speak of hierarchy in general terms because I've not been around general terms, only specific terms as they were taught to us my the aforementioned Sensei's that have been in our life's.

I don't think that any style of the MA speaks in general terms, therefore, I believe that styles of the MA speak in very specific terms.

[kensei]

The martial arts in general are taking a bit of a turn and in some ways it can be good and in others horrible and it does apply to the youthful masters topic here.

The "old days" one instructor would teach and have peers that were all kind of the same "rank and file" and while they may have taught some different things and focused on different Kata they all taught "Karate (tede ext). They were all venerable masters and the weaker and less skilled were weeded out naturally. Granted the "world of Karate" was about the size of Manhatin at the time so VERY SMALL.

Then Karate went Global and newer, Younger masters took the helm and washed Karate out over the world. they still kept the standards of Master high by dangling carrots and making rank much more important than the old masters did. They put some dogma and mystic stuff in the mix and next thing you know every round eye in sight that strapped on a belt was mixing Japanese history with bunk and real Karate and forming a mix of it and calling it "traditional Karate" and the old masters were probably either rolling in their collective graves or laughing so hard they could almost be felt on the dojo floors!

Then the "new masters" made new seniors who wanted to be masters as well, so they left and created their own systems or just took the rolls over and left the orgs. to create their own...and we then had even worse problems as missunderstandings or basic lies were being sold to us.

To really learn Karate you need to masters basics, then explore your own style and put it to the test. Get rid of foolish extras and chop down the lies leaving the core of the system. it has to be real, gritty and applicable in self defense. Get rid of the mystic bunk and remember that no one has a master! They have teachers and the minute someone puts their own importance above teaching you, asks for huge funds or disrespects you it is time to move on.

Karate should be personal journey and thus with out "Masters", dont claim ranks that are to high, they just look silly! Rank should end at black belt and just have an understanding and respect for others who reach that level, all this 6th Dan, 12 Dan, Master, Grand master stuff just clouds up the joint. Sensei means teacher...not master or God! Young masters forget this and thus I wont call them anything but possibly Sensei if they are good people. No Shihan, Soke or anthing else...possibly mr if I dont feel they are ready for Sensei!

[sensei8]

If you've self-promoted yourself in rank for whatever reason(s), then I don't and won't respect you and your newly found rank. I would've threw up if my Dai-Soke had self-promoted himself to Judan, then I would've told him to get out of my life forever.

Hhhhmmmmmm...I suppose that the By-Laws make it OK. Now I'm feeling really sick right in the pit of my stomach.

This post makes me giggle...

I can't believe that people are that fixated on the stripes on a belt, where someone wont respect someone for it, or tell them to "get out of my life".

It's not the identifiers on said belts, it's the self-promotion that's the problem. That's what I don't respect; it's the self-aggrandizement of it all. And yes, I don't want to be around those types, which is my right.

Imho!!

sorry, but this sounds like a child who gets mad at his parents and says i hate you, get out of my life. few things in life are as serious to tell someone "get out of my life" and if someone promoting themselves or putting more stripes on their belt gets you THAT fired up, i would like to see how mad you get at things that really matter in life.

Fair enough...and ouch!!

You're analysis is not how I perceive the justification of self-promotion. How do you feel about those who self-promote themselves??

[bushido_man96]

After a certain point I think rank just becomes another tool for maintaining hierarchy.

How so??

Well why do you need to be a nidan? Or a sandan? Or a kudan? Why not just a Blackbelt? It is a tool to distinguish you from him or from her. That you are Bill's senior but Bob's junior. Early on rank is an identifier so your instructor and others can gauge your progress on a curriculum but when you are training for training's sake why do you need to be promoted further. IMHO it's to maintain that hierarchy so that both the rank holder and their peers know where within that hierarchy they fall.

I don't need to be anything except a student of the MA. Those type of things are there, and were there before I came onto the MA picture. I am what I am, but it's not because of something that I did beyond my training.

No one falls into the hierarchy, they're selected via an established voting proxy. Not everyone is of the hierarchy!! We use the word "hierarchy" within Shindokan circles to only note whom lies within the Administrative Chain of Command, and not within the ranks, as you're viewing it. It's an unfamiliar term for me to see rank as you're explaining it.

Before I was elected into the old Board of Regents, I was NOT part of the hierarchy, nor was I privy to anything Administrative and the like. When I speak here at KF and I use the word "hierarchy", I've always been referring to those members, those chosen few, that are part of the Administration and the like.

Ok...I've babbled enough...sorry!

It's seems as though you use the word "hierarchy" within Shindokan to refer to something specific?

In the strictest sense of the word, everyone who wears belts is part of a hierarchy whether they want to be or not. Taking this definition:

(n) a system in which members of an organization or society are ranked according to relative status or authority

Belt ranking seems to fit into this pretty well. Once getting the next belt stops opening up a new part of the curriculum for you, why do you ever need to be promoted again?

To the bold type above...

I refer to something specific, because it is specific within the Hombu! Not my rule, but the established rule as set by our Soke!! Our hierarchy is the recognized authority within our Hombu and the SKKA. Our ranks are NOT part of OUR hierarchy, and not all, but very few, are nominated/elected to be appointed to that status from our specific ranks. It's OUR way!! Not the way of others!!

I see what Danielle is saying, and it does fit into our discussion here. By and large, many of the organizations we are a part of have a hierarchy that is determined for the most part by the rank of those in the organization. The head of an organziation is usually the highest rank of that organization (usually). And we have also determined through the course of our discussion that most people who do promote themselves are likely doing so in order to move up in some hierarchy, whether it be their own or somebody elses.